Official Luthiers Forum!
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=34568		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  klooker [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I'm starting on my first electric build - a Les Paul.

I had some mahogany that I thought would make a decent neck, the grain is straight along the length of the neck but rift sawn.

After roughing out the initial shape, the effects of the rift sawn board are more obvious - lots of run out on the side.

Is there hope for this piece of wood or am I just setting myself up for future heartbreak?

Thanks,
Kevin Looker
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I've seen actual Gibson Les Pauls with MUCH worse cut of wood for the necks, and they worked fine. The sideways runout is mainly on the flat portion of the headstock.

If you've just cut it, wait a few weeks and see if it starts to warp sideways. If so I'd toss it, but if not, unless the appearance really bothers you (you will only see it from the back anyway) it should be fine.
Author:  WindyCityBluesBox [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
If your unsure, then stick two carbon fiber rods in the neck (one on each side of the truss) http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/ ... _Rods.html My current build has a soft maple (curly) neck and I was afraid of future warping/twisting so I bought two of the 0.200 x 1/4 rods to put them in the neck
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Saw it in half down the center and laminate with the rift grain coming together in a V at the center, a darker wood at the width of your saw kerf in the center will bring you billet back to width and look real nice.
Author:  EWC&Son [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I've seen a lot of flat sawn and rift-sawn necks on Fender guitars (course, those were maple necks), and there were no problems. If the wood is dry and stable, you should be good, unless you just don't like the looks of the neck.
Author:  klooker [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Thanks for the replies.

Hearing that there are perfectly good Gibsons & Fenders out there with rift sawn necks is encouraging.

I like Fred's idea & was going to try it but realized that it won't work since I've already roughed out the neck.

I'm still open to more suggestions, opinions, experiences.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I have two Fenders. One is completely flat sawn and the other is well off quatersawn (maybe 70-75 degrees - compared to 90). My Les Paul and Ibanez are pretty much quartersawn. Maple is more stable than mahogany...so maybe these manufacturers have figured all this out.

I usually laminate my necks with symmetrical grain though I'm fixing to make some solid maple necks right now. They'll be quartersawn just to play it safe.

I will say that the laminated necks are totally stable (maple center strip, thin peruvian walnut strips along side, wide sapele strips on the outside). If a temperature change occurs my Les Paul can change pitch up to a half step while the guitars with laminated necks move five or ten cents. Including the cocobolo fretboards, there are six pieces of wood, all glued with epoxy under pressure. Barring the use of reaction or juvenile wood, it would be pretty hard to end up with anything BUT a stable laminate.
Author:  Corky Long [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Zlurgh wrote:
I have two Fenders. One is completely flat sawn and the other is well off quatersawn (maybe 70-75 degrees - compared to 90). My Les Paul and Ibanez are pretty much quartersawn. Maple is more stable than mahogany...so maybe these manufacturers have figured all this out.

I usually laminate my necks with symmetrical grain though I'm fixing to make some solid maple necks right now. They'll be quartersawn just to play it safe.

I will say that the laminated necks are totally stable (maple center strip, thin peruvian walnut strips along side, wide sapele strips on the outside). If a temperature change occurs my Les Paul can change pitch up to a half step while the guitars with laminated necks move five or ten cents. Including the cocobolo fretboards, there are six pieces of wood, all glued with epoxy under pressure. Barring the use of reaction or juvenile wood, it would be pretty hard to end up with anything BUT a stable laminate.


+1. Even though you've roughed out the neck, I think there's benefit to laminating the neck with several thin stips of maple, ebony, whatever hardwood you choose. I think that cutting it down the middle releases some of the tension in the wood. A couple of good stable glue lines with other woods (which have different grain orientation and/or reaction to humidity changes) will stabilize this wood, even if you're not able to oppose the grain orientation.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I'd also add that prior to laminating the boards, I stress relieve them in the following way:

All the boards are rough cut to the pre-laminate size. In my case they are cut to 25.25" x 2.25".

The boards are resawn to .9"-1.0" thick for the thicker boards and .15" for the thinner ones.

Holding the thicker raw boards in a set of soft jaws which holds the wood steady but doesn't bend or stress it, I use the cnc machine to plane one side flat. Then I flip it over and plane the other side, achieving a precise thickness....but this time it's held down it in a vacuum fixture. The thinner pieces are cut both side holding them in a vacuum fixture. Whatever warp or twist exists in a .1" thickness won't be pulling the rest of the 2.3" thick laminate out of shape.

I'm posting this because of all the things there are to worry about, it's clear I won't be worrying about necks that warp or twist over time. Stress relieving the boards prior to gluing and gluing the parts with symmetrical grain is the reason for this.
Author:  klooker [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I'm convinced, a laminated neck is the way to go especially if I want to use this piece of wood.

I had some Ovangkol & Bubinga that I resawed and did initial thicknessing on. I'll let everything sit for a week or two then join it up & glue. Image

I'll keep you all posted.

Kevin Looker
Author:  klooker [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
... that wood does not need to be laminated to be serviceable... And with that said, now you can consider some of the input you've received ... ;-)

Filippo


So you're telling me that you've built with a similar piece of wood or you have enough experience or data to support?

Not real clear on your last statement. I have taken all input into consideration.

I've decided on a laminated neck because I think it's a safe assumption that it will be more stable than solid. Is it necessary? I can't say, but I do think it's a lower risk & I do think that a rift sawn piece is less stable or will move less predictably than a perfectly quartered piece.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Bobc [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I don't think maple is more stable than mahogany. At least not in my experience with both woods.
Author:  Corky Long [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Kevin. Yes I am saying that my experience, with my guitars and those whom I've worked with, along with many guitars I've owned makes this "mythable".

You might do well to ask others for their supporting data NOT TO use an off quarter mahogany blank - that would seem a better question since you changed your mind and decided to laminate by the input you received.

Filippo


Filippo,

i'm interested in your perspective, but not entirely clear on what you're saying. Is it your experience that a flat-sawn or rift-sawn mahogany neck (actually, I'm trying to describe grain orientation rather than the way it was sawn, if you get my meaning) is as stable as a mahogany neck with grain opposing the force of the strings, or a laminated neck?

I don't have a lot of data points, but am in process of rebuilding a neck for my #3, which has developed so much relief that the truss rod won't solve it. A possible explanation is that the grain is oriented horizontal to the force of the strings, rather than vertical to it.
Author:  Bobc [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Corky Long wrote:
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Kevin. Yes I am saying that my experience, with my guitars and those whom I've worked with, along with many guitars I've owned makes this "mythable".

You might do well to ask others for their supporting data NOT TO use an off quarter mahogany blank - that would seem a better question since you changed your mind and decided to laminate by the input you received.

Filippo


Filippo,

i'm interested in your perspective, but not entirely clear on what you're saying. Is it your experience that a flat-sawn or rift-sawn mahogany neck (actually, I'm trying to describe grain orientation rather than the way it was sawn, if you get my meaning) is as stable as a mahogany neck with grain opposing the force of the strings, or a laminated neck?

I don't have a lot of data points, but am in process of rebuilding a neck for my #3, which has developed so much relief that the truss rod won't solve it. A possible explanation is that the grain is oriented horizontal to the force of the strings, rather than vertical to it.


Corky I'd be more inclined to think about moisture content.
Author:  cphanna [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I agree with Filippo on this issue. However, I do saw off-quarter necks in half and flip one piece end-for-end like Fred suggests--whether or not I add decorative veneer layers to the center. I do one thing different than Fred. I orient the point of the end grain "v" upwards, pointing to the underside of the fingerboard. This reveals nice straight grain lines running the length of the finished, contoured neck. I do this solely because I think it looks more attractive that way. But I believe all of this is mostly cosmetic in nature. Vertical grain orientation probably adds some stiffness to a neck, and we are all certainly careful about grain orientation in our top braces for that reason. But necks also frequently have truss rods, carbon fiber reinforcement, and other methods of stiffening them and counteracting bows. If your wood is straight and dry, I doubt that you'll need to worry about any twisting. And if you go to a guitar store and really look at the stock, you'll see many grain orientations in the necks.
So...build it as you wish and don't worry too much about it. Good luck with it and let us see it when you've finished.
Patrick
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
This is mahogany? Keep it around for a while and see if it moves, if not, go ahead and use it as is. Mahogany is usually wonderfully stable no matter how you cut it in my experience, so unless you really like the look of racing stripes along the neck shaft, I wouldn't bother.

I can't get mahogany in boards that are large enough for one piece necks over here, but I have plenty that is narrower. I cut them into matched laminate pairs, even though they’re not book matched. The grain direction in the neck is \\\/// (fingerboard on top), and the theory is that the opposing grain direction will equalize any tendency to warp. Perhaps the notion that they are more stable than one piece necks is wishful thinking, who knows. My necks are quite stable, and I like the look, anyways. Here are some pictures that illustrate the process.

I trace mirror images of as many of my neck patterns as I can onto a 40 mm flatsawn mahogany board. I code each blank to be so they can be paired once they are sawn out (1A is paired with 1B, 2A with 2B and so on).

Image




Close-up

Image





Then its simply a matter of cutting slightly outside the lines. As you can see, there is some waste, but most of these chunks I can use for neck and end block etc.

Image






So, the two laminates are paired up, to be stored for a while, until further processing.

Image





Here’s a closer view of the grain in the pairs.

Image



Here's how it looks on a finished guitar. This one had lamiates that were quite off quarter, as can be witnessed by the distinct V-pattern in the grain.

Image
Author:  cphanna [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Our friend, Arnt, gives good advice, as usual. And he also documents his processes better than most of us. Hey, Arnt, if I am not mistaken, I think I see an archtop neck in the making here....yes? No...? I am referring, of course, to the blanks you've cut with the obvious neck extensions that will go over the sound board. I totally enjoy reading your building threads. I learn so much from them, and I would be PARTICULARLY interested in following the build that you plan for that neck--if you are inclined to start a thread on that instrument. I hope you will.

My best to you and blessings for your Christmas season,

Patrick
Author:  Corky Long [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Arnt,

Two words. you rock. Thanks for sharing, and for taking those great pictures..... worth more than a 1000 words. I'll try that approach - makes perfect sense.

Bob,

Thanks, you're probably right. I think that neck was with some found scrap mahogany that may not have been dry enough.
Author:  Jim_H [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
I concur, thank you Arnt. This one is definitely going into my 'notes' folder =)
Author:  klooker [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rift Sawn Neck - Bad Idea?
Arnt,

Thanks for the reply.

I read your post early this morning and was left somewhat speechless - you took what some would consider a defect or shortcoming & made it into an improvement or feature.

There are a handful experienced & talented contributors to this site who take the time to share with the rest of us in a very humble & helpful manner.

Thank you [clap] .

Kevin Looker
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/