You might also try a multi-scale/fanned fret guitar, like this one:
http://www.rondomusic.com/pendulum6fltbk.html
Or build one!
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| Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=33071 |
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| Author: | OnWe [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
Hey guys, new here. Not sure if this is the right place for this sort of question, but I thought you might know a thing or two about weird guitar set-up. A few years back I decided to teach myself how to play guitar in 5ths. After a bit of research, I settled on a tuning called (by others) NST, which goes C-G-D-A-E-G (the D string being the same as standard tuning). I play a Fender Blacktop Tele with a 25.5" scale length. Obviously, it takes a bit of messing with it to try and set up my guitar properly. The biggest challenge is the low C strings - intonation and string tension is an issue. When I intonate the low string to the 12th fret harmonic, the open string is out of tune. When I intonate with the 12th fret depressed, the harmonic is off (and other notes up the fingerboard aren't exactly right, either). I remember reading online that someone preferred to intonate to the 19th fret instead of the 12th - is it just a trial and error process for finding out which fret will provide me with the most accurate intonation? Any suggestions you guys could offer would be great. -alex |
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| Author: | Ian Cunningham [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
What kind of strings are you using? For such a low tuning you will need to buy thick strings, for the low C a .074 is suitable for a traditional guitar scale length for example. I'm going to link to a string calculator. It will help you find out what you need. Then go on juststrings.com or anywhere else that will sell single strings. It's more expensive that way but worth it if you enjoy the tuning and use it a lot. Once you find out what strings you need, you will need to modify the nut to fit the strings. Fenders are cool this way because it's easier to make a new nut for it. They just go right in the lil slot. You say you're having trouble intonating the low C. That shouldn't be a problem, as mandocellos use the same low C and the scale length is typically about 25" which is close to what your Tele has. You have to intonate to the 12th. This may stem from using the wrong string gauges. Hope this helps.... Ian String Tension Calculator: http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
Sometimes intonating two notes an octave apart works better than a 12th fret note/ harmonic set up. Is that what you are referring too? I think most use the 5th and 17th frets for this. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
AS Ian said you need thicker than standard strings for the lower notes to have the right tension. If you play strings too slack, the strings will vibrate sharp when you pluck them before settling to the correct pitch, which makes intonation difficult, and would also account for the open strings being different than at the 12th fret, since the sharpness will be less pronounced on the shorter string sections, such as at the 12th fret. FYI my intonation scheme is at the 1st, 12th, and 19th frets, they must all be correct for me to be satisfied. |
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| Author: | OnWe [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
Hey, thanks for all your helpful replies! I'm gonna try some heavier gauge strings. |
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| Author: | dpm99 [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
You might also try a multi-scale/fanned fret guitar, like this one: http://www.rondomusic.com/pendulum6fltbk.html Or build one!
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| Author: | Mad Raxz [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
An interesting tuning, I always thought it was impossible, and it is, since those are not 5ths. The 1st string would be B (if they were all 5ths); C G D A E B, instead of C G D A E G. This is impossible because the first string would break at the first bend, so the G seems like an interesting solution. I have a guitar tuned down to B (B E A D F# E B), and know at least 3 people who have guitars tuned to "drop A" (A E A D F# E B), our solution is using Dunlops Zack Wilde 10 60 strings which are 10 13 17 36 52 60. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dunlop-Strin ... 0725429546 As for intonating I like B Howards concept of comparing the 5th with the 17th fret, but NEVER the harmonic over the 19th fret with the 19th fret itself. If we remember musical history a C# WAS different than a Db until 1685 (?) in which we turned to the TEMEPERED system (hence Bachs “well tempered clavier”). Please read the paragraph “origins” here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament The guitar is fretted in the tempered system, but the harmonics on a string are NOT! Octaves are exact but fifths are slightly off, thus the harmonic over the 19th fret would be a real “B” but the fretted B is not quite there. The tempered system is slightly out of tune, which sounds good to us, so any “intonating” must be done by OCTAVES, which are precise on the tempered system! |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
Quote: An interesting tuning New Standard Tuning used to be known as Guitar Craft tuning, or what Robert Fripp developed and used with later iterations of King Crimson or the League of Crafty Guitarists (for us old school guys). |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
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| Author: | Mustang_jt [ Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
I don't mean to high jack this thread, but is there a reason anyone would intonate a harmonic? I thought that the whole point of intonating was to compensate for the string stretching as you push the string down to the fret, thus intonating the harmonic would make the fretted note sharp which subsequently making the whole string minus the open note sharp. As a side note, I start by intonating the 12th fret and then check each fret individually, I usually adjust to "temper" the whole guitar. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
Very good question, John. I just did it that way becaus that's how I was told back when I was a teenager, (30 years ago!  ).Seemed to always work, so... I don't do fretted instruments anymore, so not much experience there no. I tried your 5th, with a 3rd tuning, and it didn't sound good on a lap steel, so I cranked the knobs a bit and came up with this one, CGDGDE. Sounds pretty good. I guess it would be called a C9 tuning. 159593. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonating a guitar tuned (mostly) in 5ths. Any tips? |
Mustang_jt wrote: I don't mean to high jack this thread, but is there a reason anyone would intonate a harmonic? I thought that the whole point of intonating was to compensate for the string stretching as you push the string down to the fret, thus intonating the harmonic would make the fretted note sharp which subsequently making the whole string minus the open note sharp. As a side note, I start by intonating the 12th fret and then check each fret individually, I usually adjust to "temper" the whole guitar. What are you intonating to at the twelth fret if not to the harmonic? Just making the fretted note exactly one octave higher? Does that work? I thought the idea is to match the half length partial with the string stretched (fretted) to the same partial with the string relaxed (harmonic) and therby minimize the difference btween the two states at all points on the fretboard. |
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