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Alternative hand applied finshing
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=29407		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Rusty [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternative hand applied finshing
Alright guys. What can I do when spraying toxic fumes into the air isn't an option? My goal is to achieve a very tough, scratch resistant, high gloss finish. I can handle something that has toxic fumes since I have a respirator, but it cannot be sprayed. I will put in the extra work - elbow grease to achieve this, but I need something that will be tough.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
A very well known luthier who's name I won't mention recomended arm-r-seal.
A poly wipe on finish.
Dat's all I know.
I've seen some very durable poly finishes on guitars.
A friend of mine had a Huss and Dalton, with a killer poly finish on it.
Tough as nails, and pretty too!
Author:  Rob Warren [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Do a search for water based lacquer. Either Stew Mac colortone, Target USL or EM-6000, KTM-9. There's tons of discussions here about them, and brushing is an option. I brush EM-6000 with 20% retarder added to it, and I get pretty good results. Read up on the pros and cons and see what you think.
Author:  peters instruments [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
french polish maybe? never done one myself, but from what i understand it is all aplied by hand its a pretty good finish when its all done
Author:  rustedpalm [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
the real trick here is how close to a mirror finish do you want.there are some good quality brushable poly's out there that flow very nicely.however you typically will have deeper "brush marks" than you would have "orange peel" if you sprayed so more sanding/polishing is needed. i recomend sanding between coats if you brush, rather than waiting till then end.


If it were easy everyone would be doing it.
Author:  Rusty [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Rob Warren wrote:
Do a search for water based lacquer. Either Stew Mac colortone, Target USL or EM-6000, KTM-9. There's tons of discussions here about them, and brushing is an option. I brush EM-6000 with 20% retarder added to it, and I get pretty good results. Read up on the pros and cons and see what you think.

I guess I should have mentioned I am done with KTM-9 and probably any other water based stuff. I've done a bit of research over the past year and want to stay away from the water based solutions.
Author:  Rusty [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
rustedpalm wrote:
the real trick here is how close to a mirror finish do you want.there are some good quality brushable poly's out there that flow very nicely.however you typically will have deeper "brush marks" than you would have "orange peel" if you sprayed so more sanding/polishing is needed. i recomend sanding between coats if you brush, rather than waiting till then end.


If it were easy everyone would be doing it.

I want a high gloss finish for sure. I just picked up some minwax wipe on poly and will be doing some testing for hardness this weekend.
Author:  Rusty [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
alan stassforth wrote:
A very well known luthier who's name I won't mention recomended arm-r-seal.
A poly wipe on finish.
Dat's all I know.
I've seen some very durable poly finishes on guitars.
A friend of mine had a Huss and Dalton, with a killer poly finish on it.
Tough as nails, and pretty too!

Do you have anymore info on this guys results without giving up his name? If the finish product is very tough and doesn't scratch easily at all then I am interested.
Author:  rustedpalm [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
another qiuck tip is dont "wipe" on the finish.spend the money (around 20-25 bucks)and use a high quality brush like a Purdy brand.this will help things to flow smoother and leave less bump/grooves to sand out. also work in a cool area so it doesnt dry too fast.remember you want everything too sort of melt together as you brush, and always finish with smooth long strokes.
Author:  Rusty [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
rustedpalm wrote:
another qiuck tip is dont "wipe" on the finish.spend the money (around 20-25 bucks)and use a high quality brush like a Purdy brand.this will help things to flow smoother and leave less bump/grooves to sand out. also work in a cool area so it doesnt dry too fast.remember you want everything too sort of melt together as you brush, and always finish with smooth long strokes.

Have you used the wipe on poly before using the application method you describe? I was reading that someone was having trouble with brushing the stuff and someone reminded him to actually wipe it on like it says and that fixed his issues.

I should have mentioned earlier that I am able to spray and have the equipment, but I work out of a workshop in my backyard and have neighbors. I don't want them or my family affected by particulates in the air.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Russell-
You could add U-Beaut 'Hard' shellac to your list- I haven't used it yet on a guitar, but it 'pads on' like French Polish and supposedly cures hard after a few weeks. LMI is the only supplier in the US, I think.

Another possibility would be Behlens Qualasole Padding Lacquer.

Often, 'tough' means 'thick' so that may be a problem with FP-type finishes, which are typically put on in fairly thin layers. Even if the finish is tough you can 'bruise' the underlying wood quite easily.

Cheers
John
Author:  rustedpalm [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
ya i have brushed some polyurethane before with success.however i can understand your point.some of these are so thick that to brush them you only get one shot. apply quickly and pull one brush stroke and do not touch again.even wiping youll notice the same thing,simply dont have enough time to touch it. i havent tried those little foam pads before, that might give you a smooth coating. have you checked stew-macs selections
Author:  rustedpalm [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
well i just checked stewmac and didnt find much,anyway i would definetly test both ways. also if your going to sand and polish as a typical spray job then the wiping may be fine cause youll sand it smooth anyway.have fun and let us know how she goes.
Author:  Rusty [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
I'm tempted to try brushing the Nitro I have with a little retarder added. I have read that a few have done it successfully and still do.
Author:  rustedpalm [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
By Nitro do you mean lacquer ? If so yes you can brush it well. A trick to lacquer is to use enough thinner to let it flow and layout but not dry too fast and cause dry brushing. It won't be as hard of a finish as poly though.
Author:  Rusty [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
rustedpalm wrote:
By Nitro do you mean lacquer ? If so yes you can brush it well. A trick to lacquer is to use enough thinner to let it flow and layout but not dry too fast and cause dry brushing. It won't be as hard of a finish as poly though.

I got some McFaddens before they went out of business. Shouldn't it be pretty hard when fully cured? I actually don't know if I've handled a guitar with a Nitro finish before. I probably have, but I wasn't building guitars at that time so I didn't have a need to check for toughness and scratch resistance. Isn't it still being widely used with no complaints as far as the toughness of it?
There is a difference between 'Polyester' and 'Polyurethane'. If I'm not mistaken, polyester is more desirable because of it's hardness, and the polyurethane is not.
I'm just hoping to get a really hard finish that I can wipe or brush on if it is highly toxic, or something that I can spray if not so toxic.
Author:  rustedpalm [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
You mentioned minwax wipe on, I believe that is a polyurethane. Polyester is harder, it is pretty much a hard plastic shell when cured. The urethane is a little more flexible. Polyesters are usually applied in a two-part system like you would using epoxy building a surf board. Nitrocellulose lacquer is softer than either of these two. Funny note: guitar building is the only time I've heard it called nitrocellulose, everyone else just says lacquer. Anyway it's a fancy way of saying porous. That's why it's softer, those microscopic air bubbles can break down easily. Poly(a fancy term for plastic) is almost non porous therefore less break down and harder finish. So really it's up to you and your individual taste. I love the classic shine of lacquer myself. But poly is gonna hold up better. And will shine nice if you follow the sanding procedure all the way to buff & polish.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Behlen's Rockhard Tabletop Varnish can yield great results brushed on, but it's not for the faint of heart.

Pat
Author:  Rusty [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Pat Foster wrote:
Behlen's Rockhard Tabletop Varnish can yield great results brushed on, but it's not for the faint of heart.

Pat

Are you saying it's pretty toxic stuff? How hard is the finish?
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Rusty wrote:
Pat Foster wrote:
Behlen's Rockhard Tabletop Varnish can yield great results brushed on, but it's not for the faint of heart.

Pat

Are you saying it's pretty toxic stuff? How hard is the finish?

I'm not sure but Pat may be referring to the tendency of varnish to collect all the dust and bugs in the house as it dries.....
[uncle] ;)
Author:  Rusty [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Okay - sounds good.

So I'm thinking of testing out the wipe-on-poly when my newest guitar is ready. I'm also thinking of two different finishing results.

1) Build up to a high gloss finish on my top maple, and leave the back and neck mahogany un-poor filled to leave a natural feeling for the player. (this sounds interesting to me as I've not seen it done before, although it may have of course) I believe this would let the guitar resonate more also.

2) Make the entire guitar high gloss which would make me think it would be easier to poor fill the mahogany for sure. So my question is would I be safe using Z-Poxy over the stained wood and under the wipe on poly? Are Z-poxy and Poly friendly to each other? I read on LMI that it should work but some recommend shellac between the Z-Poxy and top coat. Has anyone here had any issues not using the shellac in between? I remember using shellac under KTM-9 and there were definitely adhesion problems
Author:  John A [ Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
How did the Minwax polyu work for you ? Everytime I look at my hardwood floors I think of this - and how great this would be on a guitar neck. Walking on it doesn't damage it -
Author:  oval soundhole [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Try Minwax wipe on poly. Its cheap, a hard finish, and incredibly easy to apply with no toxic odors.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative hand applied finshing
Couple of points on Minwax.

Learn to apply it thick and evenly. You can try brushing it but I had very good results wiping it on with small folded knit cotton pads....t-shirt material. The trick is to learn how much material to load onto the pad and to take ONE pass to deposit that amount....applying the coat in parallel passes. It not hard and when you figure it out you'll see it goes on smooooooth....and bump free. A thick layer self levels nicely.

The other thing is to ALWAYS use 240 and lightly scuff sand between coats. If you use sandpaper that's too fine it will blotch up as the coats accumulate. I know 240 may seem too coarse but the thick coats fill all that in.

Prep the wood with 240. Use the gloss and do between 8-12 coats. Final sand with 600 - then 1000 - then rub out with compound....Stewmac sells it. You can get a pretty high gloss surface but it's not nitro.
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