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Hey everyone. Finally got my first build all wired up, pretty intense. I installed Graphtech piezo saddle pickups in the bridge, with an Acoustic Preamp (sounds amazingly like an acoustic electric) and also installed humbuckers in the bridge and neck spots, Dimarzio D-Activator for the bridge spot, and Dimarzio Air Norton for the neck. It doesn't sound terrible!

Okay, down to brass tacks. First, I'm tuned to C#G#C#F#A#D#, whatever that is called, drop D then a half step down, with Elixir 10's, which is what I use on my other instruments. I've got one tone and one volume knob, with coil tap. Everything works the way that it should, and the tone isn't thin, so it's not like anything is wired backwards or something...I don't think anyways, I've check it a number of times. I've got a 0.047uF capacitor on the tone control.

The problem is that there isn't nearly enough treble, I mean the tone from the mags is seriously mid-heavy.

Another issue is the distortion. I have a Mesa Dual Rectifier (early 90's era two channel), and even with the gain cranked all the way up and the master volume at a moderate volume, there still isn't that much distortion, and it should be screaming! Also, if I do just single picking on low C#, not palm muted, most of the distortion disappears, and it sounds tinny, not thick chunky and gain ridden.

I've raised and lowered the pickups with no real improvement, and messed around with amp settings for a few hours with not a lot of luck. Is there any modifications that can be made to boost the treble and thicken the tone up (without aid of pedals or anything like that), or is it time for some new pups? I've used Seymour Duncan Invaders, and they're really hot, a great pickup for sure, but they're not F-Spaced, so I may divert back to those.

Thoughts? Thanks!


EDIT: I should probably mention that the body is cherry, with a maple through neck. If I do need to swap the pickups out, I'm looking for something to play modern metal/hard rock. Something chunky. I'm not too worried about how the pickups cleans up, since I can blend that with the piezo acoustic sound.

What's the impedance on the mag pups?
If it's around 8k ohms,
those are more musical, and less distortion.
If they are around 14k ohms,
they should be overdriving the amp.
Maybe something wrong with the wiring?
One way to find out would be to bypass all the components,
(pick-ups direct into the amp with no switches or pots or anything)
and hear if it sounds different.
Metal heads like active pick-ups.
EMG?

I wired the pickups backwards on my last build: The green wire should go to the ground, the black is the hot wire.
I had them reversed. I doubt if you did this, but in my case, there was no treble, and both pickups on sounded terrible.
Here's a link to Seymore Duncan wiring options:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/
'hope this helps.

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Alan, the bridge impedance is 11.41khom and the neck is 12.58kohm, so they're up there, but looks like I need to go hotter? I've got some passive EMG's in an Ibanez, and it actually exhibits some of the same symptoms as I'm experiencing with my build, with low levels of distortion on mainly the lowest strings.

Dzsmith, you're right, Seymour Duncan does use Black as the hot signal, seemed crazy to me. Dimarzio does use the red as the hot, so then I sent the black+white to the coil tap, and then green+shield to the ground spot.

I actually just found the impedance for a Duncan Invader, a crazy 16.8kohm, I didn't think it was that high! Buh, I really don't want to have to take the ones I have installed out and then get ahold of a different set...

For high gain with treble, the Invaders can't be beat as they incorporate a capacitor in the coils that maintains the highs in those pickups. That's one of the issues with high gain pickups, is the trebles are attenuated.
Another good pickup is the Duncan Distortions, which use ceramic magnets.

As far as your wiring goes, try a .02mf cap instead of the .047mf on your tone control.

In addition, 1 meg potentiometers instead of the 500K's will increase treble response overall.

If those suggestions fail, a treble bleed cap on your volume will help (or maybe even try it first?). Bridge the input and output tabs on your volume pot with a 500pf capacitor (that's PICOfarads, not MICROfarads). The issue with that is when you turn your volume down, it will lose bass faster and sound like a lo-fi radio before turning the volume down. A 120K resistor in parallel with the 500pf cap cures that and maintains the full frequency response as the volume goes down.

Good luck!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

BTW, the tuning you use is referred to as "Dropped C-sharp". I used to do the guitars for a guy named Eric Hersemann before he moved away to Chicago. He's in a band called Gigan, he's also played with Hate Eternal and Lord Blasphemer.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Another BTW, with your acoustic preamp you need some kind of decoupler to fully separate the acoustic signal from your electric signal. LR Baggs makes one: http://www.lrbaggs.com/controlx.htm

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Yeah, the only problem I have with the Invaders is that they don't come F-Spaced, which I'd prefer, but if I do end up going Invaders, I suppose I can live with it. I'll see if I can get ahold of some caps/resistors and give those bleed suggestions a shot.

Dimarzio has got an exchange thing where if you don't like it after buying it, you can swap it with one that you do like, so before dishing out some more monies I'm going to give them a call and see what they think. The Dimarzio Tone Zone has got a higher impedance than the Invader, so I'm thinking I may give that a shot.

As for that acoustic pre-amp splitter, how exactly does it work? I'm using a Graphtech Acousti-Phonic preamp board, and I've got a midi summing board that integrates with that as well. The mags do pass through the preamp, because there is a blend function, so I don't think I'd be able to use the splitter.

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?SubCategoryID=14

Is this what you are using? If so, it is designed to work with magnetic pickups, but it says you should use a separate volume pot for the acoustic pickup.

If your acoustic pickup is blended with the magnetic pickups at all times it will thin out your sound.

F-spacing sounds important, but it really isn't, at least for the invader pickup. The magnet on these and most humbuckers is on the bottom, and the magnetic flux field surrounding the strings is rather unfocused compared to the strat style magnets, also the string poles are HUGE, so the f-spacing is less of a factor than you think.

Invaders should work fine in your guitar.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Yeah, that's what I'm using, and I do have a separate knob for the acoustic volume, as well as a 3-way selector for mag-blend-acoustic selection. And sweet about the spacing, that's good to know.

I did some research and called the guys up at DiMarzio, and they said they could swap that D-Activator for the Dominion (Mark Morton from Lamb of God's pickup of choice), and even swap my chrome tops onto it as well. I'm probably going to give that a go, and report back in a couple weeks when it comes in.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Well, we know it's all about tone - at least it's talked about in metal scenes. Back in the 80's when metal ruled the airwaves, that's when I was making serious money as a luthier. Most of those players cried for sustain, but never played anything longer than a quarter-note, and wanted enough treble to slice ears into bloody confetti, and bass definition that would make your bowels move to the double-bass drum beat. Nearly all of them wouldn't know what good tone was if it bit them in the hind end.... but we all have to make a living dealing with the public, right?

Anyone remember the Schecter SuperRocks? Or the PJ Marx 810? The Ibanez V2's of the 80's? Those were good metal-era pickups with real tone - but they seem to be as rare and expensive as early Ferraris these days. MightyMite made a 3 coil Motherbucker that could sound like a Tele or a Les Paul, if you so desired. Anyone remember them?

I built a Les Paul with 3 DiMarzio X2N's once - it sounded like God's own buzzsaw through a Marshall or Mesa Boogie. It had all the midrange tone of a chorus of baritone saxes honking through a Muscle Shoals r&b classic. I do not recommend them, except for smooth jazz played through a Jazz Chorus amp. Very round for that.

Real tone is best when cleaner at the instrument, and then churned into a square-waved frenzy at the amp (in my opinion). That's why I sold metric tons of Duncan JB's to the Les Paul guys and Lace Sensors to the Strat guys. Get your tone sourced from these - then supercharge into a furious maelstrom with the volume knob.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Hmmm, On my pickups, the Black is hot, the Green is ground, and the Red+White go to coil tap.
Dan

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Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Exactly my take as well. The hotter you make a pickup the less musical it becomes imo. Why not have the guitar present a musical tone through a Duncan SH1 - SH4 or a set of Dimarzio Air Classics...or Air Norton....and have distortion occur downline if you want it? In this case you'd have music if you want it or could peel off your face if you want that.

Mind you, I'm not opposed to the peeling of faces but I like my guitars to give me a few choices.

The long and short of it is.....the guitar/pickup/effects/amp industrial complex has evolved with very few points of focused direction....creating about twelve trillion potential "sounds". On the one hand there is a kind of magic getting to a unique sound. On the other hand....you could easily spend yourself broke trying to find one. Personally, I like to use mid-output, musical pickups and plug straight into an amp modeler. I know some people hate modelers but a good modeler puts all the variables into one place. If you know how to use the device it doesn't have to sound fake.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Thanks Stuart and Chris for confirming my unqualified opinion on this. I think much has to do with tradition vs. technology. If you want traditional classic tones, you can get a rig to do just that, but that is about all you get, send a strong signal to a modeler and other effects and get anything you want. I used an EMG 89 with LR baggs bridge piezos, it sounds clean and strong, hit a pedal and peel some faces. I don't really know what else to try after this, it was what I was hoping for, I still have not combined the batteries for 18v operation yet.
Rob

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