Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello everyone,

If an experienced luthier with average problem-solving skills were to purchase an entry level CNC machine for the purposes of peg head inlay, routing rosette channels, and radiusing fingerboards, what would the learning curve be? (1 is quick/simple, 10 is lengthly and complex).


Sorry if this is a time waster for you. Thanks in advance.
Jon

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

What are your computer skills level? Also, make sure you get a machine with a lot of startup support. When I got mine it was a kit and it was a pretty steep curve to get started. The folks here will help you along the way, though.

I second that....

Yes there is a learning curve for the CNC machine, but IMHO there is even a much bigger learning curve for modelling software. Good models = good CNC machining...nothing can really be done with out this, unless you sit there and write G-Code by hand.

Hopefully I am making sense, but I would really start with "What modelling software do need to learn first?", "What software can I afford?" before "what CNC machine should I buy...?"

It would make the whole process much easier...

Lets us know how else we might be able to help. Do a search here, and you will also see the process other folks have gone through in selecting modelling applications and cnc machines.

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
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My first CNC experience was in January of this year. I had gotten one of Rockler's Shark machines, and it came with the Vectric V Carve Pro software. V Carve is designed mostly for sign makers, but I found that it was really easy to use for doing inlays/pockets, fret slots (on flat boards), fingerboard profiles etc. I've built instruments for years, and have made my living in the computer industry for years, so I wasn't a total rookie. But, the V Carve software made it very easy to design and cut inlays etc. I was cutting shell and doing nice tight inlays within a couple of days of getting the CNC machine set up. I don't think that I was at all remarkable in being able to be productive with the software that quickly--Vectric makes a very user friendly, don't-have-to-be-a-geek product. I'd put this kind of work as a 3 or 4 on your scale.

As for arching fingerboards--V Carve Pro won't do that. Won't carve necks or tops/backs either. It's a 2D to 2 1/2D product. For arching fingerboards and other 3D work, I use Rhino CAD and madCAM. Although these are both fairly easy to use products too, the learning curve was a lot longer than it was with V Carve. Arched fingerboards aren't very hard once you understand the process. Necks are more complicated to get right, as are top/back plates for archtops. I would rate this kind of work at a 5 to 10 on your scale, depending on what you're doing. But that said, I was turning all of these out with good success within a month or two of getting the machine. By June of this year--after having the machine 5 months--I was doing production work in 2 and 3D. I was also using a bigger, heavier duty CNC machine by that time.

Hope this helps.

Dave

I second the Rhinocad3D. I have only done 2.5D in the past and used Autocad for my flat designs and 2.5D designs. I used LazyCad but I have really had it with their lack of repeatability in creating offsets and pockets, so I'm looking at CamBam right now. It does the same function as LazyCam but does it better. It is supposed to do 3D as well but I haven't gotten that far. I've been teaching myself Rhino to do tops and necks getting ready to do some 3D machining. Here's my latest.

The learning curve can be pretty steep if you have no CAD experience at all. But immersion can be fun if you decide to buy a cad package, design the cnc and then build it yourself. That's what I did. Just like getting into building guitars and building my first from raw lumber, it was a great experience. That said, if you're doing light duty work with the cnc, you may be better off paying someone local to cut your rosette channels and such. CAD and CAM can be very difficult to learn, and with many obstacles along the way. If you're prepared to spend thousands on a machine, and dozens of hours learning, rather than mere hundreds by farming out your work, then I say you'll probably eventually enjoy having one. But it's not for everyone, and unless you're selling services, recouping your investment can be tough.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I'll +1 just about everything that has been said. There is a learning curve for CAD, CAM, Mach 3 (assuming that is what your controller software will be) and the actual machine. Luckily there are people willing to help with the entire process.

Rhino seems to be the preferred CAD package, but can I suggest MOI3D. It's developed by the engineer that made Rhino but it has been stripped of many of the bells and whistles. However, I find it much more intuitive to use than Rhino. I find the interface is easier on the eyes as well, Rhino actually gives me a headache if I use it for more than an hour or so. Download the unlimited use but no save capability and play around with it for a few months. And don't worry about not being able to save your models. Once you learn how to model you'll be able to replicate everything you made in minutes not hours.

For CAM, I started with Vectric Cut 2D and Cut 3D. Both are easy to learn and both create nice tool paths. You'll be able to cut parts the day you buy the software. I did upgrade to V-Carve, mainly because I needed to make a few signs, but there are some nice features that can be incorporated into guitar building. With the huge interest in CNC, I keep hoping that MIT or some other tech school will create an open source CAM program.

Of all of the software necessary, I actually found Mach to be the most frustrating. There are lots of options to tick off. Some aren't well documented and some don't really seem to do anything, that I can figure out anyway. But there is decent forum support and once set up, you don't have to make many adjustments. That said, at ~$200 it's probably the biggest bang for the buck of any software you'll buy.

Make sure there is decent support for the machine. The mechanical end is pretty straight forward, but in my opinion controllers are a different story. If the builder uses Gecko drives you can get support from their forum. If the drives are Chinese, you might be on your own. And, using a laptop to run your machine is a great idea in theory. Eventually once all the tech savvy people have worked out all the bugs I'll swap out my Dell pc.

Lastly, as a hobbyist I have found that a CNC machine really isn't a huge time saver in the build process. CNC is very good for making the same parts over and over again. Tweaking designs from build to build can require multiple test cuts and many times it would be faster to do it by hand. But where's the fun in that.


Bob

I didn't mention that I've been using BOBCad since starting this whole cnc thing, and have been relatively happy with it. Sure, it has it's quirks, but everything does. On top of that, for usually around $650 you can have a CAD/CAM package with art software as V-carve capability too. The CAD end of BOB is pretty decent, but it rather shines in the CAM end if you ask me. It's very intuitive software to use. I came from a background years ago using Unigraphics UGII, working in the engineering offices of a major plastics manufacturer. BOBCad was the logical choice for me when considering price, software capability, and ease of use.

What BobK said here was right on the money...

"Lastly, as a hobbyist I have found that a CNC machine really isn't a huge time saver in the build process. CNC is very good for making the same parts over and over again. Tweaking designs from build to build can require multiple test cuts and many times it would be faster to do it by hand. But where's the fun in that."

You can spend hours and hours drawing something that you would only spend an hour making by hand in the first place, and then sometimes the cnc can actually be a liability. But you can also be creative with the thing too, so there's both pluses and minuses.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

And a +1 on the "not a time saver" comment. The way I used to rough out necks (on a shaper) was a lot faster than the CNC is. But the CNC produces a much closer to finished product.

Still, in my case neither time nor closer to finished product is the biggest advantage of CNC. To me, the biggest advantages are: Space saver. The jigs and fixtures I used to use took up a lot of space in my small shop. Now they've been replaced by files that sit on a disk drive. Safety. My hands aren't going anywhere near big shaper cutters any more. Easy repeatability. If I want to build another whatever a year from now, I pull up the file and start cutting. And last but not least, it's a lot of fun and I'm a geek at heart...

Dave

Wow, guys what fantastic advice. Much food for thought. It is exactly what I needed-especially regarding software. Many thanks!!!
If I take the plunge, I will be back.......

Jon

_________________
It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia