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| Author: | henny [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Would anyone be interested in mach3 wizards/add-ons that are made specially for guitar and bass luthiers ? (like the "standard shapes" wizard from newfangledsolutions but then with more usefull shapes and routines for guitar building) for some basic tasks this could save some valuable time instead of first drawing in CADsoftware and converting in CAM software, you get direct G-code generation in mach3 by inputting some parameters on a fancy screen... examples I have made for myself: -radiusing fingerboards (normal and compound) -fingerboard outline routing (by using total length, 1st fret width and 12th fret width) -routing fret slots (following fingerboard radius) -equal spacing string slots in nut -buzzfeiten shelfnuts (user must also own buzzfeiten software and be authorized to use it) -radiussing bottom of nut -neck profile probing -measuring fingerboard radius with probe -pickguard tracing with probe -drill position dots -scale inlays -pickup routing (humbuckers, single coils, etc) -neck pocket routing (f.nd.r/w.rm.th style guitar and bass) -drill tuner holes in line -etc... Would you also be willing to pay a small fee for downloading such add-ons/wizards ? I'm thinking something like $10-$50... |
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| Author: | turmite [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Hello henny, Is there any chance the h in your user name should be replaced by a b?  I use Mach, but not Mach3. I still use the last version of 2 and it ran so well, other than digitizing, I would not change over!  That said, I think $10 per is a fair price and a package of them for $50 would be fair. Why don't you attach a couple of photos showing the screen on a couple, then show some of the parts you have made using them. Photos are always allllllllways the best way to go! Mike |
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| Author: | Parser [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
I always work off of CAD files...but for folks who are more interested in something off the shelf, those could be some useful functions. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Wish list: A wizard for probing a 3D object that would first probe the outside profile. Then do a 3D scan of the object staying within that profile and retract only a small amount after each contact. This would be much better than the "rectangular bed of nails" routines. Nelson |
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| Author: | henny [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
my nickname is Henny, not Henry and also not Benny  npalen: That is exactly why I made my own wizards, with the normal probing routines it takes AGES to probe something... I have made wizards with different strategies for this, depending on the kind of probing you want to do. (2D or 3D, approach side, etc ). The macro I made for probing the backside profile of a guitar neck is also something like this. It takes measurements from the side to determine outer limits and then probes only the most interesting points (adjustable), so it is a little faster than normal probing routines. If there is enough interest I will post some links with pictures and maybe also some video's. Otherwise I won't go to the trouble and just forget about the idea of selling them to others. I intend to stay in the $10 to $50 price range for a complete set of wizards. Maybe a cheap version with no probing/measurements and a slightly more expensive "deluxe" or "upgrade" version wich also includes probing wizards... |
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| Author: | npalen [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Henny--Please put me down for the probing wizards!!!!! Nelson |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Being new to all of this stuff, I am still not sure what you are offering, so seeing examples would dictate my interest. Thanks Shane |
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| Author: | npalen [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
http://www.newfangledsolutions.com/addons.php These are some examples of "wizards" than can be used with Mach. They are general machining aids. Nelson |
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| Author: | turmite [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Henny the reason I ask is because there used to be a guy that was a major player in getting the Mach forum (not Yahoo) up and running, and his user name was ynneb! He is from down under and I thought you might have been him resurfacing after a long absence. There is a fellow in the Uk that developed a probing outine exactly like what you have described. I have it, but have never used it since I still use Mach 2 most of the time. I also discovered recently, it will not work with some of the newer versions of Mach3. I wish you well on this. Mach was the greatest thing that happened to home cnc and grew so rapidly to something much more than Art ever imagined and is now used in many industrial machines! Go figure!  Mike ps your probing routine doesn't do rotary 4 axis by any chance does it? I will jump all over that! 
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| Author: | henny [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
no I'm not ynneb. I do know his name from the machsupport forum, but I do not really post much on forums myself. I work on guitars 12-14 hours a day just to get the bills paid, so there is not much time left for fooling around on forums  Indeed, the ultra cheap price for Mach2/3 software has not only made CNC routers affordable to hobbyists, small company's and craftsman, but it also has much more customizing options than those really expensive industrial controllers I'm more into guitar repair and doing modifications than guitar building, so I use the CNC router more for routing inlays, engraving stuff, cavity's, flattening warped fingerboards, changing fingerboard radius, scalloping, making replacement pickguards on/for existing guitars. Offcourse, when you are building your own guitars you can work from the CADdrawings you have made and convert these to toolpaths with CAMsoftware, but in repair situations I do not want to loose my time making drawings first and then convert them using CAM software + if you want to make a minor change, you need to go back to the drawing and then re-calculate toolpaths, etc... For most basic tasks like fingerboard radius, pickup cavity's, etc... it is just faster to input or change a few variables into a wizard, select the tool I want to use, select the start position and press the RUN button. time: +/- 17 seconds
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| Author: | turmite [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Henny can you do organic type inlays with a Wizard? BTW what about rotary 4 axis digitizing? Mike |
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| Author: | npalen [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
http://www.vinland.com/Touch-Probe.html This probe would be useful with Henny's proposed wizards. It's one of the best home-spun ones I've seen on the web and simple to build. It looks like the key would be getting the three pins located precisely 120 degrees apart, but maybe that's not important? The fact that it is nonadustable has a lot of merit judging from my experience and which the author explains in the text. I would definitely like to make one of these to replace my Maxnc probe if I could find the time. His suggestion of a disconnect plug has merit for sure and I would orient it such that if one accidently started the spindle rotation......... What do you guys think? I'm sure there are other good designs out there. Nelson Edit: Henny, it's exciting to see someone using digitizing and CNC for repair work! |
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| Author: | turmite [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Guys here is a man who makes probes at prices approaching what you can do them for and you don't have to spend the time. I have not used one, but I did get to hold on in my hand and it is a quality piece. "Arnie Minear" <aminear@wyomingwireless.com>, Mike |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Henny, Thanks for the offer. I'd be very interested in the neck probing wizard. I would also very much like to be able to enter in XY start and end coordinates and probe the Z heights along that path. How much trouble would that be? |
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| Author: | npalen [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
turmite wrote: Guys here is a man who makes probes at prices approaching what you can do them for and you don't have to spend the time. I have not used one, but I did get to hold on in my hand and it is a quality piece. "Arnie Minear" <aminear@wyomingwireless.com>, Mike http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=80 Mike--Is this Arnie's website? Nelson |
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| Author: | npalen [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Hopefully not hijacking Henny's thread here by sidetracking into probes........ But I have to wonder if anyone has tried making a digitizing setup using a digital scale mounted in the spindle? Seems like they have become very inexpensive even with output capability. Some way to make a guided and spring loaded (down) probe with a roller ball in the end driving the vertically mounted scale? Switch the output of the scale via an interface to temporarily replace the Z encoder feedback. Record XYZ readings at each "nail location" on the bed of nails? Would certainly be faster than conventional 3D probing if this could be done "on the fly". Any CNC/electronic gurus out there listening? Nelson |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
npalen wrote: http://www.vinland.com/Touch-Probe.html This probe would be useful with Henny's proposed wizards. It's one of the best home-spun ones I've seen on the web and simple to build. It looks like the key would be getting the three pins located precisely 120 degrees apart, but maybe that's not important? The accuracy of the pins isn't really that important, nor the accuracy of the ball placement. If you sit three pins on three bridges, then moving the tip is going to break one of those connections even if they're pretty far off (by machining standards). If using a probe to reverse-engineer, and using a 'ball on stick' tip, then the probe can be made with some pretty loose tolerances and still work perfectly well (assuming the spindle is locked so the probe can't spin). The important part so far as accuracy goes with this sort of work is how repeatably the probe returns to its initial position once lifted. If using a probe for work setup it gets trickier as the concentricity of the tip relative to the shaft of the probe is of paramount importance to your accuracy. Getting the tip concentric, with an adjustable design, isn't the hardest thing in the world but I still wonder what the preferred setup is to get the tip to very repeatably move back to dead center after it's been moved (ie: what does Renishaw do?) |
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| Author: | henny [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Turmite: sorry, I do not have 4th axis probing (yet), I do not have a 4th axis on my machine so I never needed to make one. Sheldon: That would be no problem. what do you want to do with the probe result ? import in CAD software or do you want the machine to follow the same path ? (you need to enter some parameters for feedrate, spindlespeed, safeZ , etc...) Npalen: I'm working on a wizard for reading data from a spring loaded measuring device. this would make probing really fast. I have the Heidenhain MT30 for testing, it has an option for mounting a ball or a wheel onto it. Other brands also have similar devices, i just happened to find the MT30 second hand a while ago. It works like a linear encoder/scale so the data input is a little bit more complicated and I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do this. But it should also be able to work like a normal probe, if it touches an object the data output will change, so it could be made to trigger a switch when it pushes in more than 0.01mm for example... |
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| Author: | turmite [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
npalen wrote: turmite wrote: Guys here is a man who makes probes at prices approaching what you can do them for and you don't have to spend the time. I have not used one, but I did get to hold on in my hand and it is a quality piece. "Arnie Minear" <aminear@wyomingwireless.com>, Mike http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=80 Mike--Is this Arnie's website? Nelson Nelson I don't think that is his site, but it sure does look like his probe. He also developed a video camera for cnc work that was pretty neat for accurate positioning and I did not see that on the site, which makes me think this might be a reseller. Mike |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
[quote="henny"]Sheldon: That would be no problem. what do you want to do with the probe result ? import in CAD software or do you want the machine to follow the same path ? (you need to enter some parameters for feedrate, spindlespeed, safeZ , etc...)[quote] Import it into CAD. I already have really clean and efficient toolpaths for my neck shafts. I just need to clean up the blends at the ends of each path. What can I do to help you get started? |
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| Author: | henny [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
"What can I do to help you get started?" Sheldon: A free Z2 bass might help a lot just joking I can make a simplified version of my probing wizard for this, I think I can make some time for this next sunday. If it's ok for you, I won't charge anything but instead I'll make it a free download for all OLF members to show the possibility's of using scripting/add-ons/wizards within mach3. The wizard will create a point cloud file that you need to import in your CAD software. It is also possible to do scripting in some CAD software to automate the drawing process from the point generated with the wizard, but that was not my intention to include in the wizards. I could do custom scripting for such CAD software if needed, but that will have a bigger price tag than $50 and I would need to know exactly what you are trying to draw and what the nescesarry procedures are in your software.But just out of curiosity: wich CAD software are you using ? |
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| Author: | henny [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Turmite: You also asked a question about organic inlays, what do you mean with this ? (english is not my native language, forgive me for the stupid question) |
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| Author: | turmite [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Your english is great for not being your native language! When I said organic, I was referring to something like a vine with leaves, flowers running the full length of the fret board, or something other than circles or straight lines for the inlays. For instance a dragonfly or dolphin. Mike |
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| Author: | henny [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
Turmite: you will need to do that in CAD/CAM software I do have inlay macro's for use in CAD software, this really speeds up your drawing time for inlays. you just select the inlay you want to copy to all the positions, input the correct parameters (scale length, number of frets, startpoint, etc...) and it automatically copy's the sample to the correct positions in the correct dimensions. I also have some CAD macro's for automatically drawing the fingerboard outline + all the frets at once, by entering a few parameters like width at 1ste fret, width at 12th fret, scale length, fingerboard length, number of frets and fretwire width. Maybe I will make my CAD macro's available as well in a seperate package, for using with most popular software autocad/ZWcad, Rhino, etc... if there is enough request for such macro's. |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: mach3 wizards for luthiers |
henny wrote: "What can I do to help you get started?" Sheldon: A free Z2 bass might help a lot just joking henny wrote: "What can I do to help you get started?" The wizard will create a point cloud file that you need to import in your CAD software. But just out of curiosity: wich CAD software are you using ? A point cloud would be fine. My primary CAD SW is Rhino. My CADCAM software is VectorCADCAM. It sucks I know, but I'm pretty fast with it and it's paid for. This is the softare I program my necks in. I own RhinoCAM, but I haven't had time to get to know it. |
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