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What's you take on this CNC
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=24838		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  What's you take on this CNC
Hey guys, as of lately I've been looking at some CNCs and trying to get a handle on things. I've been thinking about getting TurboCad Pro 16 for the drawing software and then move to visualmill for the cam side of things. I'm still debating that stuff so maybe your opinions would be helpfull there too. But I like the looks of this CNC .
http://www.cnclinear.com/
I'd be useing it for all kinds of things from making jigs to parts and milling alu and brass and just about everything. Even inlay. Right now I'm wanting to get my cad skills up to base. I had AutoCad courses back when it was autocad 10 soooo. What can you tell me in a nut shell. I don't see me getting a machine for a while until I get back to work for awhile but I'm starting to look and research things now.
I use to work in a small production machine shop in 97-98 and opperated the CNC when they bought one so i have some exposure to the machining aspects and the boss use to show me some of the mastercam program when he was learning it.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Chris,

You should check out RhinoCAD and then the 3 axis plug MadCAM. That is what I have now and it is working great (it is me that is not working all that great!) But Rhino seems to be becoming the standard and MadCAM is an inexpensive option and because it plugs right into Rhino you only need to open one program to do both your drawing and tool paths. Mike Turner, turmite on here, is super helpful in getting the two up and running.

That machine looks quite good! But I am no expert on any of this!

Shane
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
The one thing about that machine that seems like a pretty neat idea is that they use the inside of the tubing as a vacuum tank. All the parts seem to be top knotch from what I can tell. Pretty much like the other jig Luthertools sales. I'm not too sure how hard or how much trouble it would be to build one and how much of a savings there would be. I'm not too sure I even want to get into that or have the time for that if you know what I mean. I think I'll wash the HD Hugger tomorrow and put it up for sale. :P
Author:  turmite [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Hi Chris,

What is the price of the machine, and where did you find the info about the tubing being the vac tank? I have looked the site over pretty good and could not find that.

I can tell you it is a good looking machine though. I currently use Mach as my controller and for an open loop controller, there is none better!

What I would like to find out is if they would sell me the frame with no motors, electronics etc. If it is rigid enough, and cheap enough, I need two of them. I have a customer of mine (non guitar stuff) that wants a cnc, and this looks like the ticket.

TIA

Mike
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
http://www.cnclinear.com/features.html
At the bottom it states the Aluminum extrusions for the X axis etc.
The small machine is $9950 without Spindle. Spindle is $2200.
Author:  Parser [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
I use Rhino and RhinoCAM (which I got for about $1k a few years ago) with a K2 KG3925 machine. I've been very happy with my K2...does everything I could expect it to.

It doesn't look like they show you a lot of info on the CNClinear website...can't comment on them too much.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
That also includes training if you can make it to WA.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Chris,
Check out K2 and Shop Bot "Buddy".
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
I was over there and from what I could tell you had to add on everything including software and router mount and this and that and it came close to the same price and routers were all they had for spindles. But I might check it out again, maybe I was looking in the wrong place. On the CNC linear I like the VFD spindle as I think it would lend itself to my needs. This seems more like a commercial type of a machine. But what do I know? I'm also looking into Techno CNC routers.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Mine has a spindle with VFD and I really like that I can adjust the speed with no drop in HP. I can do from hundreds of RPM to over 22,000. I like the looks of that machine Chris. As for the vacuum table, I have one but will likely never use it (I even changed one of the three vacuum pods so it is all top notch) as I will be making fixtures for specific parts and locate them with inserts I installed into the table. My fixtures will use vacuum supplied by a refrigeration compressor (I love those things!).

Shane
Author:  turmite [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Chris, I would urge you to take your time and shop around before you plunge into a $$ hole that deep. That machine can be built for much less than that if you want to do it yourself. I would also suggest you take a look at Exfactory.com for a used machine. I haven't been there in a while and have no idea what is available, but I am thinking you can get a heavy duty machine for that price or very little more.

Not trying to interfer, just trying to help! [:Y:]

Mike
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Actually that is good advice Mike. I bought mine for about $3600 and have another $1700 in software and about $500 in repairs/maintenance. That's Canadian. So for less than $6000 I have a machine that has a replacement cost of about $25,000 to $30,000 (according to Precix). Although I am sure you could get something like it for a lot less, still it all sounded like a good deal to me. Mine came out of a University and I bought it on an online Government Auction site. A couple of months later they had a shop bot with 4 x 8 table that went for about $4500. So there is another great place to look.

Shane
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
I don't think that's a lot of machine for the money. I really don't like that they have tiny little videos of the cutting and that the thing is taking almost non-existant finish cuts on any guitar parts. If I were dropping 10K for a machine, I'd want to see what it does roughing a guitar neck! K2 have a lot of video up of their machines cutting, so you can known what to expect.

You'll save a load of cash getting your spindle from a 3rd party supplier, like Keling, no matter who you deal with for the machine (or check out eBay)

For $8764 you get a 25x25 K2 with every upgrade I could think would matter:
Servo motors
THK rails and ballscrews ($1400 option, and questionably necessary!)
8" Z upgrade
Mach 3
3/4" aluminum T slot table
Steel legs/base

If the money matters, you can build an equivalent machine for half of that. You have the mechanical ability, and there are a lot of resources online to do it now.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
I'm not about to go out and buy a machine now. Can't afford it just yet and the job seen isn't the greatest. That's why I'm starting to check things out now and get some ideas. I appreciate all the advice and I'll check out your leads. I have the time now so I thought I'd start learning the CAD software and I could use that to start making myself prints of jigs and other guitar stuff. I have plans for a DIY CNC router that I bought a couple of years ago over at CNCzone I think that has a demo of MACH with it too. I'm also thinking that If I can draw it up and and do the CAM file that I could just farm it out until I get a machine.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Michael Gurian and Kevin Ryan gave a talk a couple of Healdsburg shows ago about CNCs. One thing sticks in my memory that Kevin said which was that "if you aren't building at least 20 instruments a year you just can't financially justify the expense of CNC". Many may argue but I think it was a very valid point to a successful business model, that is if you want to look at it as tool or an investment for your business growth. Granted there are a lot of guys who own them building only a handful of guitars a year. I researched them thoroughly for 3 or 4 years before I bought mine.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Kevin has a Fadal, which is a much more expensive tool than what you can get on the market nowadays. He actually gave that talk before I got my Fadal, so it would be at least 3.5-4 years ago, and the cost of a CNC that's 'good enough' to help someone out is about 1/2 of what it was then.

That said, it all depends on your background. If you're handy with CAD, good with machines, and good at math then the CNC becomes usable a whole lot quicker than if you think it's a magic box that spits out parts and you don't have math skills (those people are why there are so many good deals on nice un-used industrial machines!).

In the end, though, I think Kevin's number is still accurate. If you think of all the things you'd do with CNC, then add up the cost of having all the parts outsourced to a CNC place for all your guitars, you probably don't come up with a machine that pays itself off in five years unless you're making ~20 instruments a year. I think it's important to balance that business reality with the fact that owning a CNC is awesome, though! [:Y:]
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
As an add-on to that five year payoff thing...I had a quick thought on that, especially in reference to Kevin's situation:

My Fadal, which was made in 1994, is still worth about 40-50% of its original value if maintained. And it's worth much closer to it's original value if it's retrofitted with newer motors and control. That's because things like accurate iron don't tend to lose value all that quickly. If considering the 5-year-value of a machine, this sort of thing can matter.

Hobby-level machines, and 'light pro' CNC routers, tend to lose value -fast- because the main value in the machine is in the motors, light unprotected linear motion components, and control. Because of this, you really have to consider the machine as having lost most of its sale value in five years when doing up your books.
Author:  turmite [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
http://www.exfactory.com/detailold.asp? ... itVideoID=

Chris this is just a quick look to show you there are some bargins out there. This machine is probably way too big for you, but.....if you look you will find! [:Y:]

On the other hand, you could still build your own machine. To reinforce what Bob has said, the more industrial you can go, the better your parts are going to be, and the faster you can machine them.

Mike
Author:  turmite [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
[quote="Bob Garrish"]

My Fadal, which was made in 1994, is still worth about 40-50% of its original value if maintained. And it's worth much closer to it's original value if it's retrofitted with newer motors and control. That's because things like accurate iron don't tend to lose value all that quickly. If considering the 5-year-value of a machine, this sort of thing can matter.

/quote]

Bob, have you had any trouble with your Fadal? I also would like to know if a 4" wire reinforced slab will hold it, or does it require a much thicker slab?

I might be able to swing a Fadal 96 year model for $5k.

Mike
Author:  Parser [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Fadal's are one of the best deals for the money - but only if you are going to do serious production!

Maintenance, Tooling, toolholders, and pretty much everything else on a fadal is going to be pretty expensive. The hobby level machines will get you in the door cheaper...will take MUCH smaller cuts (albeit with adequate accuracy)...but maintenance and tooling costs on these machines is next to nothing.

If you are hobby level and want to get into CNC, I highly recommend the K2 products. If you want to do real production, I recommend Fadal or Haas. From what I've seen, I wouldn't mess with the stuff in the mid-range (all those $30k CNC routers).
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
I'm not Bob, but I used to have one also. It'll sit on a 4" reinforced slab ( assuming a 4020 or smaller). One other thing besides the points parser points out (all valid IMO) is that you need a good size air compressor to run the tool changer. Also they've had several iterations on spindles over the years and some seem to last longer than others. So when it's time to replace the spindle you looking some $$
I'd sure be tempted for 5K though. Be sure to check for backlash and worn out areas on the ways. The table will rise and and fall as you move across the travels if it's be worked primarily in one zone of the table. Small high volume production parts that are made in a vise can cause this for example as you're always using the spot on the bed and wearing that spot out.
If it's be run hard for 10+ years it could be pretty used up. Could be a great deal though.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
turmite wrote:
Bob, have you had any trouble with your Fadal? I also would like to know if a 4" wire reinforced slab will hold it, or does it require a much thicker slab?


Yes, absolutely, and it's to be expected with a machine of that age. In the last three years I've had one axis motor need a magnet re-bonded and later and the rotor turned, another need a deep cleaning (the kind where you take the servo apart), the ATC had some sensor problems (which made ME the ATC...but I do have under a 6-second tool-to-tool time!), and the spindle/ballscrew coolant pump died and had to be replaced.

All in all, the problems cost about $1500 in parts, because I could get them fixed without bringing in a tech (or, rather, because a good friend of mine IS a tech). If I'd had to pay for techs to come diagnose and fix problems, then I'd be looking at 5K. And my machine was in pristine condition, gone over with a fine toothed comb by an experienced tech, and had a lot of components replaced by said tech before it came to me.

Get a real expert to look over that 5K machine. You can require triple that in parts really quickly to revive a machine that has worn ballscrews, cooked spindle bearings, and needs new Turcite. Used industrial machines can be a minefield, as they can require more work than they're strictly worth to get them running right.
Author:  npalen [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
One of the first things that I would look at on buying a CNC router, new or used, is the geometric accuracy of the machine.
This is something that, as far as I've seen, none of the manufacturers talk about in the literature or websites.
Sure, they say it is accurate to (will position to or maybe repeat to) .005" or .002" or whatever, but what about the travel of the three axes?
Does each of the axes travel in a straight line within, say, .001"/12"?
Is there any racking one any of the axes?
Do the X and Y axes travel perpendicular to each other and parallel to each other?
Is the Z axis travel perpendicular to X and Y in all the planes?
Is the spindle centerline parallel to the Z axis travel?
Can the machine be leveled-in or components loosened and realigned to achieve all of the above after shipping?
I would appreciate hearing thoughts from you guys on these issues.
Nelson
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's you take on this CNC
Good Question.
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