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| New CNC Router Build.... http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=23037 |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | New CNC Router Build.... |
Hi All, I have not been posting much here lately, but I have been quite busy...mainly designing my new CNC router, which should easily do in excess of 200 Inches/minute. Quality Rails (hiwin) and ballscrews. Currently, I am waiting for the machined parts to get here, as it will all be out of 6061 aluminum. I might be making these plans available at a later date, but here is a snap shot (render) done in Solidworks...48 x 36 x 6.5 inches is the working envelope... What do you think? 
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Looks like you have a good start? What are you using for motors and drivers? Have you started building or are you still in the design phase? |
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| Author: | Rick Hubka [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
First I must say I have no CNC experience at all. I've just been reading and researching lots on it. Also a friend of mine just lent me a copy of SolidWorks 2009 with a tutorial to play and learn. Your Solid Works image of your new CNC look great! After visiting your web site I see you have a lot of experience in electric guitar CNC. Do any of the 4 DVD's you have for sale have any SolidWorks files or tutorials in them? I's love to get a guitar neck SoldWorks file and play with it. Please keep us posted with the progress on your new project. |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Drives are going to be Gecko... (however, I will first use a Xylotex board I have, off my existing machine for some initial runs....). I am in the process of searching (and debating) steppers vs servos, and I am somewhat on the fence for which way to go....I am leaning steppers, since you can stall them all the time, with no adverse effects, and they have more than enough power to cut wood (I will use Nema-23's at about 420 Oz/torque). -As you can see, I will couple all the axes of the machine with timing belts. I have done some tests with all sorts of couplers, and for me, nothing beats a belt for smooth action, and good coupling. I am thinking the machine will easily do in excess of 250 IPM (at least for rapids, and will have to figure out the cuts according to the wood/material). Initially, a 2HP Porter cable wood router will be used, and then, planning on a VFD (2HP or so columbo spindle....). ALL Ball screws on everything, and Hiwin rails for smooth motion. I already got my sides and z-top/bot plates back from a CNC facility, and they came out great (were cut on a waterjet, 6061 aluminum). Another thing I am finding, is that with mach3, there is a limit to how well you can drive steppers, DIRECTLY depending on the pulsing frequency the computer is capable off (which makes perfect sense) and for an older machine I have been using, I have not been able to get any stability above 35000 Khz. So I was thinking of an external pulsing/parallel board, that will easily do 4Mhz in freq if required. Does anyone have experience with this board? http://www.warp9td.com/ Looks like it can take mach3 to new heights! Tanks all for your comments....more to come. |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
I'm curious about smoothstepper too. They don't make it easy to decide if you'll benefit from their product or not. |
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| Author: | turmite [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
I wish I could tell you to wait till the CNCBrain is finaled out of beta, but at this point I don't really know what to tell you. I talked with the developer this past week and was told some unbelievable things were already done. For instance, the Brain will now test your machine pushing it to the limits of the machine to map all your parameters for you. It will still be open loop, closed and dual closed with position correction, but with the new mapping feature, I am not sure the dual closed loop will be necessary. Cyborgcnc I run Mach2....yeah, I know  , but it has worked flawlessly for 4 years. I can rapid my machine at almost 400ipm, but due to limitations of the design, I have to limit most of my cutting to 100ipm. I do this on 25k freq. The speed of the overall system has as much to do with the useable speed as the speed of the pc, or the freq you can get it to work at.My suggestion would be to build the machine uber stiff (is that a word), as heavy as you can and go with servos. Mike |
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
cyborgcnc wrote: Drives are going to be Gecko... (however, I will first use a Xylotex board I have, off my existing machine for some initial runs....). I am in the process of searching (and debating) steppers vs servos, and I am somewhat on the fence for which way to go....I am leaning steppers, since you can stall them all the time, with no adverse effects, and they have more than enough power to cut wood (I will use Nema-23's at about 420 Oz/torque). -As you can see, I will couple all the axes of the machine with timing belts. I have done some tests with all sorts of couplers, and for me, nothing beats a belt for smooth action, and good coupling. I am thinking the machine will easily do in excess of 250 IPM (at least for rapids, and will have to figure out the cuts according to the wood/material). Initially, a 2HP Porter cable wood router will be used, and then, planning on a VFD (2HP or so columbo spindle....). ALL Ball screws on everything, and Hiwin rails for smooth motion. I already got my sides and z-top/bot plates back from a CNC facility, and they came out great (were cut on a waterjet, 6061 aluminum). Another thing I am finding, is that with mach3, there is a limit to how well you can drive steppers, DIRECTLY depending on the pulsing frequency the computer is capable off (which makes perfect sense) and for an older machine I have been using, I have not been able to get any stability above 35000 Khz. So I was thinking of an external pulsing/parallel board, that will easily do 4Mhz in freq if required. Does anyone have experience with this board? http://www.warp9td.com/ Looks like it can take mach3 to new heights! Tanks all for your comments....more to come. Gear to hear you are moving around. I wish I could help you with an external pulsing/parallel board but I have not used the product. I am also in the process of building a CNC router and know that I really struggled to find the right balance with the pulsing frequency and computer speed issue. It is too soon to tell how it all worked about but hope to have my router put together in the next few months. I was planning on using Mach3 but decided to give EMC2 a shot. After playing around with the software I am really pleased with it. I am also very please with how Linux performs compared to Windows. Just something to think about which may save you a few bucks will also giving you a top performing system. Please post some pics of your progress. |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Hi Brad, Thanks for the tips on EMC2, as I have always wanted to try it out, but have been using mach3 for a long time. The other day, I decided to give it a try, and after re-partitioning my drive to be able to boot into either windows or ubuntu, I installed emc2. Not bad for a freebie! Programs seems quite capable, and after configuring, I was about at the same limits I was reaching with Mach3, so I really did not notice any significant speed improvements between the two. Tell me, when you post, what post processor do you use for EMC2? I am a mastercam user, and I was wondering is a generic post will work... Thanks again, 
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Hi All, I have finally done some more tuning to my mach3 computer, and I am now easily getting in excess of 260 IPM on some initial tests with my z-axis.... You can see it in action here (video is a little jerky...but viewable): http://www.cncguitar.com/z-axis-260ipm.wmv I am trying to push it further to see how fast I can go, probably reach the limits of the stepper....so far, VERY happy with the speeds and rigidity...absolutely no stalling.... more to come.... |
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
cyborgcnc wrote: Hi Brad, Thanks for the tips on EMC2, as I have always wanted to try it out, but have been using mach3 for a long time. The other day, I decided to give it a try, and after re-partitioning my drive to be able to boot into either windows or ubuntu, I installed emc2. Not bad for a freebie! Programs seems quite capable, and after configuring, I was about at the same limits I was reaching with Mach3, so I really did not notice any significant speed improvements between the two. Tell me, when you post, what post processor do you use for EMC2? I am a mastercam user, and I was wondering is a generic post will work... Thanks again, Good to hear about your tests between Mach 3 and EMC2. I am still in the process of building my CNC router so I can't comment too much on which post I am using. I will be using Camworks which runs native in Solid Works as my CAM software. CAMWorks comes with a universal post generator which should allow me to create a simple post. I would suspect any generic post should work considering CNC router really aren't that complicated from a programming standpoint. Hopefully when things calm down a little at my day job I will be able to machine some of the final parts of my router and get everything put together. |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Great! Yes, that is what I am thinking....that a generic post that works with mach3 will work with emc as well. Anyway, I have further tuned the PC running mach3, and with a 48Khz pulsing frequency, I just about reached the limits of my steppers! I was able to jog around at 320 IPM, with NO issues....Very, very happy with the way this is turning out. Also, consider using belt drives for your couplings.....no real worry about aligning everything perfectly, and you will achieve very high rates... I am getting my x and y rails this week, and I should have pictures and videos for you all. 
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
cyborgcnc wrote: Great! Yes, that is what I am thinking....that a generic post that works with mach3 will work with emc as well. Anyway, I have further tuned the PC running mach3, and with a 48Khz pulsing frequency, I just about reached the limits of my steppers! I was able to jog around at 320 IPM, with NO issues....Very, very happy with the way this is turning out. Also, consider using belt drives for your couplings.....no real worry about aligning everything perfectly, and you will achieve very high rates... I am getting my x and y rails this week, and I should have pictures and videos for you all. Looking forward to the pictures. I am thinking I might be able to machine a few parts the week after next so maybe I also might have something to show sooner than later. |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
cyborgcnc wrote: Also, consider using belt drives for your couplings.....no real worry about aligning everything perfectly, and you will achieve very high rates... Where are you sourcing the belt drives? Or are you building your own? |
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Sheldon Dingwall wrote: cyborgcnc wrote: Also, consider using belt drives for your couplings.....no real worry about aligning everything perfectly, and you will achieve very high rates... Where are you sourcing the belt drives? Or are you building your own? Sheldon...what are you using for a CNC router or are you building one? |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Hi, all timing belts are from sdpsi. They even have a calculator to helpl in the design . All my pulleys are from there also. You can even download pre made cad models to use in your designs or assemblies. Very happy with their products and service. Sdp-si.com |
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| Author: | Parser [ Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
In addition to SDPSI (Stock drive products), WM Berg has a wide range of small power transmission stuff as well. Tons of little belts, chains, etc.. They also have CAD downloads. Mcmaster-carr is better for larger stuff as is MSC. Between these 4 companies, if you can't find what you are looking for when doing small equipment design, then you probably need something that is more specialized. Trev |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Parser you are spot on! These companies usually have everything one might be looking for. I would like to throw in there one more: Mouser. If mouser does not have the electronic part you are looking for, it probably does not exist! http://www.mouser.com |
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
http://sdp-si.com/web/html/newprdbelts3.htm Something new to me. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Cyborg, that is a nice machine! How much (hardware) cost do you think you are looking at to build this? Mike |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Hi Mike, The parts that will basically cost the most are the linear guide rails, and the ball screws. These are basically the heart of any CNC machine, and the reason one will get 400 IPM vs 40 IPM (hiwin rails, etc...) -For the rails, you are looking at about $1000, maybe a little more when you add the slides (figure $1200 or so). -For the ballscrews, with ballnuts, another $1000. Now, all the extruded aluminum is really cheap, but what was NOT cheap, was the machining for the custom aluminum parts I needed done, basically for my z-axis and the sides (the sides could have been made from extruded as well, but if I am going to build, I wanted something done right, and looking nice). It cost me about $700.00 to have these done. Entire machine was designed in Solidworks. So I would say, just for the "skeleton" with ALL the rails and ball screws you are looking at roughly $2700-3K. Now you add the steppers controller, software, computer, but I already have all these items from my previous build, so that is roughly my cost so far. As you can see from the video, I reached the limit in speed (maxed out my stepper) with my z-axis, so I would say the rails and ball screws are doing the job! I am doing the work on my x and y now, and should be ready to test speeds on those in about 2 weeks (waiting for my screws to be machined....).I can't wait to OBLITERATE my first piece of mahogany on this bad boy.... 
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Brad Way wrote: Sheldon Dingwall wrote: cyborgcnc wrote: Also, consider using belt drives for your couplings.....no real worry about aligning everything perfectly, and you will achieve very high rates... Where are you sourcing the belt drives? Or are you building your own? Sheldon...what are you using for a CNC router or are you building one? It started out as a Shopbot, but's been upgraded to a Mach 3/Gecko system with gearboxes on the X and Y motors. Most of the frame has been replaced with welded assemblies. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Cyborg, Have you assembled the gantry yet? I am wondering how rigid the assembly is. Did you build in adjustment capabilities to get all the axes orthoganal? Mike |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
Hi Mike, I am building the gantry over the weekend, as I am currently tapping all the holes. I build the base already, and let me tell you, this thing is SOLID. I basically was standing on the base, at all locations to see if there is any flex, and I could not detect any (I weigh about 190 lbs). I expect I will be able to stand on the gantry when done, because as you can see, it is a solid box design braced at top and bottom. -As far as adjustments: The z-axis is easy to adjust, because basically the plate that will mount the spindle needs to be square to the rest of the machine, and with a couple of "slightly" larger mounting holes this is easily achieved. As far as squaring up the remaining axes, this is where the beauty of cnc machining comes in: The sides and the gantry sides were machined on a waterjet, with better than .001 accuracies. When the rails get mounted, they will absolutely be spot on square with their mounting holes, and the rest of the assembly. If there is still a minor adjustment that need to be made, I can easily enlarge the holes where the gantry will mount to the slides on the side of the machine. Square that up, and tighten....but I really do not see me needing to do this (we shall see). So far, everything has fit together like a glove, and build is going quite well. Testament to the build of the z-axis, is the speeds I was able to achieve after building it. I will make sure I post a couple of photos of the gantry when done, and hopefully in about 2 weeks, post some video of the x and Y axis going at 400IPM
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
I hope you will make your design available (as well as your sources). Glad to pay for it. Yours is the first design I have seen that I feel like attempting. I HATE MDF.  I have a freind who wants to also build an all metal design. Now this is where my ignorance will show. Do you employ any saftey items like limit switches to prevent accidental over drive? Can't wait to see how it does with the router attached and how it behaves under load. Please keep the updates coming! |
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| Author: | Parser [ Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New CNC Router Build.... |
A waterjet with better than .001??....never heard of one that good. Most are .010 at the best I believe.. |
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