Official Luthiers Forum!

I just figured out I can get a variety of CAD software packages for dirt cheap, and entirely legally (oh, the joys of being a student), so I figured I'd ask those of you with CAD/CAM experience to chime in: what's a good package for someone without massive amounts of experience (or any, really) who wants to dabble in designing various guitar parts and the like (from bodies to bridges, electric and acoustic, and inlays). I've got a CNC project perpetually on the back burner/list of 'things to do eventually', but I figure it's a bit idiotic to start building a machine if I don't understand the basics of, well, designing things to make with said machine beforehand.

The packages available that look vaguely relevant all cost about the same (65-85 euros), and I've got the following to choose from:

AutoCad 2008 (Student Edition)

Autodesk Inventor Professional 2008

Solidworks 2006-2007 Student Edition

(Solidworks comes with a 24 month license, the other two with 14-month licenses).

Thoughts from those in the know?

Autocad and autodesk inventor are great. Inventor is not a cad program though. Its a 3d prototyping program. Its a amazing program. I recomend you check them both out. Usually you can get a limited trial version of autodesk programs. try them out and decide then.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

I would check out Rhino. It's very easy to use especially if you know AutoCAD and easy to learn if you don't.

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Don Sharp
Got Brazilian?
http://www.sharpguitars.com

I am a big fan of Solidworks. It seems fairly easy to use once you get the hang of things.

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Brad
Avon, OH

We use Rhino, RhinoCam (Visual Mill), and we're starting to use Allibre for some more straight forward 2 & 3 D CAD. From Allibre things can go to Rhino, thence to RhinoCam and to G code.

Just replumbing the vacuum pump and setting up a dedicated high velocity 3 hp Oneida dust collector for the CNC machine.   Still have to pin rout some parts, though...uggh!

Mattia, On my rating of those listed Solidworks is the cream of the crop. Those are all just the CAD side however. You'll need a different package to get the CAM output.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Having used everything on that list, I wonder why those are your only options? Is that what's stocked in the student store? For my money, the right software isn't on the list.

Rhino, hands down. First off, your student license is good -forever-. Under the Rhino licensing scheme you can use your student version forever, even in a commercial capacity, until you decide to upgrade. Secondly, I think it's the best CAD/design program out there. Best prices are from ob.com so far as I can see.

I use Rhino for all my CAD, and MasterCAM for toolpathing. SolidWorks has some perks from an engineering standpoint, but nothing that applies to guitars. MasterCAM is very expensive, and Visual Mill is a great solution for anyone who doesn't need the really advanced features of MasterCAM.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Those were listed because those were the packages the student store/network offers. If Rhino does an educational package, I'll certainly try getting that. Thanks for the tips, guys!

Jim: I realize it's only the CAD side, but I figure without any CAD stuff, it's a bit premature to go looking for CAM solutions...thanks!

Go to the rhino website. You can order the student copy directly from them. You'll need to send them proof that you're a student though. I think you can just fax them a copy of your student ID though.

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Don Sharp
Got Brazilian?
http://www.sharpguitars.com

[QUOTE=sharp_custom] Go to the rhino website. You can order the student copy directly from them. You'll need to send them proof that you're a student though. I think you can just fax them a copy of your student ID though.[/QUOTE]

They're pretty easy-going on that stuff, I'd imagine any smidge of evidence will be enough. I was at Al Carruth's when I ordered my copy, away from all my docs, so I just told them they could look on the math dept. website if they needed proof of my enrollment. That did the trick for 'em.

The support you get when you call and online is fantastic, as well. Like, people will fix a model you upload and write out how they did it for you.

Also, the guy who originally coded Rhino for McNeel has a new CAD software of his own out. It's called Moi 3D and it's in open beta (read: free) right now. The skills transfer back and forth pretty readily, the tools work in much the same way, so you can use that for free to get your feet wet and you'll be able to use Rhino at the same proficiency after five minutes adjustment. If you have the cash and commitment, I recommend just going straight to Rhino, but for anyone who wants to give CAD a try for free Moi is a great option.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Yeah...what Bob says! Also, nice lead on Moi3D - I'll have to recommend that to a couple friends...

In my mind, Solidworks is the best mid-priced CAD package (mid = $500 to $5000). Some CAD tools like Pro-E can run many thousands more. SW also charges about $1500 per year in maintenance. SW is a true solid modeler and is a great tool for doing surfacing work as well as part and assembly modeling.

Rhino is geared more towards surfacing. That's cool though because a lot of guitar stuff is surfacing intensive. You can get an entry level CAD and CAM setup with Rhino/RhinoCAM for about $1500. I'm sure you can get a student discount on top of that. There isn't anything out there that can touch it in my mind. Some people like BobCAD but I never really liked the interface. They tried to make something different...and they succeeded.

soo...long term, I would suggest as Bob et al. have, that you look at rhino. In the near term..if you have the dough and suitable computing horsepower..I'm sure you'd get a kick out of solidworks. It's great software but be forewarned that it is much more demanding of your PC. I'm running rhino at home on a 933 PIII machine that I wouldn't even try to install SW on.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Mattia,

I also use Rhino for CAD, OneCNC for CAD/CAM.

You can try ob.com, acedemic superstore.com, journey ed.com, etc. to compare prices on academic discounts.

Look for the most recent version, 4.0
Best of luck!

Paul

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Paul Bordeaux
http://www.bordeauxinlay.com

Mattia,

I just purchased Rhino 4.0 after playing with the free trial version you can download from the McNeel website. The cost here in Canada is about $900 to $1000 depending upon the vendor. A student version can be had for $179 plus shipping for students.

Rhino from above seems to be the way to go. I am learning if for the same reason as you in that I will someday get a CNC machine but want to learn the CAD part first. Beauty about Rhino is that most folks offering CNC services to guitarbuilders use is...so before you get your machine you could design parts and get Bob Garish to cut them for you. John Watkins also uses Rhino.

You might want to think about getting CorelDraw as well. The other day I took a Headstock JPEG, read it into Corel, cleaned it up and exported the file as a DXF file and read it into Rhino and was able to dimension it to the desired nut width. I thought that was pretty cool being able to create an accurate template.

[QUOTE=Anthony Z]   The other day I took a Headstock JPEG, read it into Corel, cleaned it up and exported the file as a DXF file and read it into Rhino and was able to dimension it to the desired nut width. I thought that was pretty cool being able to create an accurate template.[/QUOTE]

You can set an image as your background in Rhino by right clicking on the name (TOP, FRONT, etc) of the viewport and going into Background Bitmap -> Place. From there you can trace the image using the 2D tools (InterpCrv, arc, and line being all you really need). That's how I reverse engineer 2D shapes like inlay, headplate templates, bridge footprints etc. (Along with the calipers, measuring coordinates in the machine, etc)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Late Entry here Mattia...

I've not used AutoCad but I have used others and I find that Rhino is pretty simple to use and reliable which to me is a BIG deal. I invested in taking the training class in seattle at their headquaters which I HIGHLY reccomend, it was the best $1200 I have ever spent.

I also use Rhino-Cam and while it works and I've gotten used to it, I do have some issues with the interface. When I get an error like 'Invalid Geometry Detected' I now *know* what to look for, but it would be nice if it would say 'Bit too big for pocket action'!!! I've started looking at other CAM packages to see what's out there, and to be honest so far Visual Mill (which is Rhino-Cam and vice versa) is the best for the semi-pro price range. But like Paul B I was also starting to look at OneCNC, or upgrading to the pro version of Visual Mill.

Moi 3d looks awesome by the way, downloaded a copy and am playing with that as well.

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Bob, thanks for the tip -- I'll try that. Also thanks for the Moi 3d link. I tried it -- very easy to use. I really like the Extrusion function.

I just sprung for a package I've been wanting for awhile, but it was too expensive for me until now. It has mixed reviews by some folks, but I've been able to learn a good bit on the demo version easier than I was able to pick up the nerbs stuff in Rhino. Plus, it has a nice CAM package built-in to it, and a great way to edit the g-code on the fly. BobCAD/CAM is the package. It comes also with an art program in a package, as well as something called Predator (not a movie) for great 3d simulations of the cut. The price was really right. They will deal with you at times and drop the price way way down. In this case, they're motivated by year-end stuff, as well as bringing in revenue for the holidays. I received a small holiday bonus this year, which mostly covered the cost. I will still purchase Rhino at some point, since I can get the student price on it. The nice thing is I on't have to pay extra for a CAM package, since the one on BobCAD is so easy to use.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

cool, good luck and have fun!

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Let's see if I can post an image here....my first 3D solids drawing, done in the demo version of the CAD/CAM software I bought. I'm also going to buy Rhino, and do some stuff in there as well.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hey Don,
Congrats on the pyramid bridge. That looks really awesome. Have you cut one yet on your machine? I am getting a LOT closer to jumping in

Oops, forgot to login. That "guest" guy is my alter ego coming out again.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I just bought BobCAD/CAM and so far I am pleased with it. Being a noobie to the CAD world, I needed something that was extremely user friendly. I was able to talk them down on the price of the software considerably and also got a 22 disc set of training manuals to boot, so I am happy. The training discs are extremely helpful in getting jump started.

As of right now, I have just been playing with 3D signs and inlays. I finally figured out how to do both the pocketing and then cutting out the inlay so that everything fits right. Once I got the basics down, the rest is coming in spurts as I have time to work on it. I have already been cutting out my own custom designed bridges and you will start seeing those on my future guitars.

Parser drew up a Neck model for me and I have been able to modify it for my needs and then run the CAM file and then the NC code for my machine. As soon as I get the bugs worked out of my new upsized table, I'll post some pics of the machine cutting out a neck.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Cool! I'm really liking mine a lot. I find it extremely easy to use, at least for the cad part. I have yet to dive into thecam part. I've been spending more time preparing to build my cnc. Almost there! I finally have about 99% of the parts I need in hand, and am going to start this weekend on the bench to hold it. I'll post a screen shot of the cnc for you for kicks.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don, I have got pretty good at the CAM part of BobCAD. If you need help with it, Let me know.

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Reguards,

Ken H