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Speaking of HHG....................
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Author:  KThomas [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:16 pm ]
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I am ramping up to start on my #2 and was considering trying HHG on this one. 'specially after reading the heated post on what glue is best.


I will definately try practicing on some scrap pieces and try to get comfortable before actually gluing up anything important.


That said, I was curious what kind of hot pot I should get, I saw one in the LMI catalogue, its a work of art, looks like I could smelt steel in the thing. I can't believe everybody has this fancy of a contraption, what's important and what works? Thanks
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:38 pm ]
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Kurt the Rival "Hot Pot" comes in two sizes and probably multiple colors too.  It works great.  Use marbles in the bottom so that your HHG bottle does not sit directly on the heating element.

In the tutorials section there is a tutorial on how to mix it, use it, tips, etc.

The rival Hot Pot can be converted to add a suspended jar for brushing.  So far I just use these little 4,2, and 1 ounce squeeze bottles.





You do not want to heat it above 145F.
Author:  KThomas [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:46 pm ]
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Hesh,


Thanks, looks like something I can just get down at local Wal-mart, is that so or where should I look. I'll check out the tutorial too, did you do the HHG, I really enjoyed the one you did on fitting the neck.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:58 pm ]
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Kurt I use a small iron pot on a hot plate. I copied Hesh's idea with the marbles but i used these marble like rocks i found at a dollar store. They where for arts an crafts or something like that. I also use the small bottles. And i have the dial type kitchen thermometer. I'm still experimenting with it. You need to work fast with it compared to yellow glue. But if you do mess something up its not to hard to get apart like yellow glue. I got my glue at LMI so you know it will probably be fresh. I'd be weary about getting it on ebay or somewhere that does not deal with luthiers or antique repairers.
Author:  KenH [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:09 pm ]
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a quick search on ebay led me to 5 of them. the highest priced one I saw was $9.99US.


HERE is a link to them.
Author:  KThomas [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:15 pm ]
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Thanks for the help guys, I'll pick one up and the marbles too.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:15 pm ]
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Kurt I couldn't find a Hot Pot at my Wal-Mart but I have heard from others who did.  I bought mine from a dot.com resulting from a Googly search.

Yes I did the HHG tutorial and the point of the thing was to demystify the use of HHG.  When I got to the OLF it seems very complicated to me and as JJ expounds HHG is not difficult to mix and use with great success. But titebond is easier for some folks.......

US Plastics (they are on the web) is where I get my bottles and they are dirt cheap.  Also, another very fine Mario idea is to get some stainless steel bolts that will fit into the bottles, degrease them (a great Colin idea) and insert them in the bottles when you mix the glue.  The weight of the bolts will keep the bottles upright in the Hot pot and act like a rattle can if you want to shake the stuff up.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:22 pm ]
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I bought a Baby Bottle warmer.  It seems to work pretty well.  A good bit smaller than the hot pot.  Same principle though - heat water with a bottle or jar of HHG.  I was keeping the thermometer in the glue though, but I was using a wide mouth small jar.  The bottle idea is much better.  I have recently bought some from US Plastics too.  Very easy.  No minimumsm, and very quick response time.  
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:57 pm ]
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Quit waisting your time! I stuffed around with the sort of ideas above (no offence guys!) but when the rubber hits the road and guitarmaking became my buisness, I ordered a holdheet pot and never looked back.


The pots come calibrated, all you need to do is made a lid to which a 8oz tapered glass jar can sit to hold your glue. (Glue pots are made for joinery shops and therefore 1 quart size...which is about enough glue for 10 guitars or more). Fill with water and you are away camping.


A hair drier (to warm the parts before gluing) and glue brushes are also a must. I recently ordered special metal-less glue brushes from Hammerl in Germany, which are quite an unreal peice of glue-brush art!


Anyone seriously interested in using hide glue should read the post called "everything you wanted to know/ask about hide glue" in the technical section of the UMGF, page two currently. A lot of exceptional detail there from some top makers in our craft.


Glue? Higher bloom strengths are slightly supperior, and are not harder to use. The finest glue I have ever used after trying many kinds from all over the world is the Topaz Special from www.tanex.cz. Sometimes I will blend this 60/40 with the high clarity glue by milligan and higgins for spruce crack repair and inlay.


Tony



 


 


 
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:17 pm ]
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A $12 "Little Dipper" croc pot will hold 140 day in and day out. No adjustments, so there's nothing to g out of calibration.

the holdheet pot is nice, and it is perfect, but really, if it holds the temperature correctly, any device will do. A hundred bucks in difference buys a lot of other goodies <bg>

I notice your sign; is that a reminder to shut it off at day's end? If so, I understand completely(having left mine on for two days while I was sick and didn't go back to the shop!), and I will suggest buying a 4 hour timer. I bought one, wired it up with a short cable and an outlet9basically, cut a short extension cord in half, and wire the timer into a box with the cord). I use this timer for not only the pot, but for anything that heats up(irons, etc...). But 99% of the time, it's duty is wit the glue pot.
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:36 pm ]
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I tried my first test pieces with my 192 LMI HHG glue today.
I am maybe doing something wrong???? (as usual)

First off....  I mixed it up about 10 oz. a week ago.  First at 1 HHG to 1.9 water mix (by weight) like the info paper said that came with it from LMI.  Way too thin at 140 degree's, It was like water.  Then I checked out  Hesh's HHG tutorial.  His info paper said 1 to 1.8  mix but he mixed at 1 to 1.7.  So I added the appropriate amount of HHG granuals to bring my batch to a 1 to 1.7.  Re-heated to 140 and let sit over night.

Today during testing I brought the glue pot temp up to 140 - 142.  Checked that with 2 digital therms.  Did some test gluing and wow...  Very very thin and runny.  dripping everwhere then turning to a jello consistancy in about 40 seconds.

I mixed as 1 oz HHG to 1.7 oz water.  Did I get it reversed?  At 140 t's only a tad thicker than water still.

Is this normal and I just have to work faster, neater, smarter and get used to it???
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:46 pm ]
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I paid $1 for my glue pot. It's a West bend hot pot. It's about 25 years old and it came from a local thrift store. I've had it for 4 years now and although I've only been using HHG for the past year, it holds 140* perfect every time I plug it in.

Like Mario said, $100 will buy a lot of other goodies.

Also, the SS bolts do more than just keep the bottle the right side up in the pot, they hold heat which will therefore keep the glue at a more consistent temperature when out of the hot pot. It's called a heat sink
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:50 pm ]
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I just sort of add water until it looks right, but the glue will run at the consistency I use it. It's certainly not near as viscous as Titebond (which also runs). For most non-stressed parts, I just hold them together for 45-60 seconds until the Jell-O thing happens and they'll stay after that. I've done destructive testing to make sure this produces a good joint. Almost as good as CA, without the burning eyes and gluing myself to things.

I keep my baby-food jar of hide glue in a mug of water on a coffee-cup warmer. I used to use a candle-warmer and just put water in the basin, but it got all rusty. Just get a thermometer of some sort to check that whatever you're using is around 140F and you're good to go.

Note that the baby-food jar/mug/coffee-warmer setup from Al Carruth, who taught me to use hide glue. I also brush it on with something between a 1/2" and a 2" brush depending on the job (mason jar directly on cup-warmer for the big jobs).
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:52 pm ]
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Here's a picture of what mine looks like



This one is on ebay listed for $2.99

Just cut a small hole in the top for the bottle, put some rocks or marbles in the pot and you're good to go.

Author:  Hesh [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:32 am ]
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Rick HHG at 140ishF is runny and will puddle at that temp and then start to become more like jello in short order.  It takes a little practice if using a bottle to not squeeze it out to fast.  I think that I just invert the bottle, don't squeeze, and quickly run a glue line, position the part, and clamp all in 15 seconds or so.  Part of the beauty of HHG is that the cured glue joint is very, very thin on an molecular level.

I like the 1 ounce bottles for applying it and I am sure to make a very fine hole in the tip of the bottle so that it does not come out to fast.  I mix mine in a 4 ounce bottle only filling the bottle half way making about 2 ounces.  I transfer half of this to the 1 ounce bottle that I work with and keep the rest in the fridge until my one ounce bottle needs a refill.

10 ounces is a LOT of HHG.  I typically mix up about 2 ounces, use it for all braces, bridge plates, and the bridge and end up pitching more then half of it when I am done with the guitar.  It seems to keep for me in the fridge for at least 5 weeks and you can reheat the bottle many times.

Colin freezes HHG in small cubes that are ideal for single use times.  He also, if I remember this correctly uses a baby bottle warmer and I think that Dave White does too.

I bought a Little Dipper originally but must have got a bad one.  Mine fluctuates all over the place peaking at near 160F and cooling off below 130F so I don't use it.
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:39 am ]
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This morning my test pieces were well glued with the HHG dried to a hard crystalline.  The curls of jello strips  I peelled off with my chisel all snapped like plastic when bent.

Thanks Bob, I 'll have to try using a brush next.  I was letting it pour/drip from a pointed plastic tip of a 4 oz. plastic bottle the same as I would with Titebond.  Ya... brush it on from a bottle of HHG from a bottle will be Saturdays test run.

I like how in the Go-Bar deck the HHG 'd glued piece just sits in place immediately.  With LMI it was sliding around 5 min before it would stay in place.

Back to testing and learning HHG techniques for me
Author:  Kirt Myers [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:21 am ]
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Here's my rig. Works surprisingly well.
Pyrex meat thermometer with a jar lid to hold it above the bottom of the pan.



I've since gone to the glue bottles with bolts system. I found the little glue bottles at a local craft shop.

Hide glue is great. I would suggest using distilled water to mix with the glue granuals.


Author:  Dave Anderson [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:27 am ]
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Here's my glue pot I got on ebay a while ago.
I've had no problems using the small bottles without marbles in the pot.
Maybe I should though,to be on the safe side eh? Where's the
marble source guys?

Author:  Zach Ehley [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:16 am ]
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Tony, What temp does yours hold at?  I have a similar one that I got from StewMac and its too hot.  155+ when almost full with water.  The thing is that their web page shows it to be between 150-155 when 2/3-3/4 full.  Anyone see this before?  I took a quick look a few months back and didnt see a pot in there to adjust or a resistor that could be changed out.  $100+ and it dosnt seem to work right.
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:20 am ]
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Hey thanks for all the HHG tips!  It's starting to come together.


I'll switch from the 4oz to the 2oz bottles I have and use a smaller pin whole in the tip this time and keep a small brush handy.


Dave I have the same pot from ebay.  I bought my marbles at the local Dollar store.  I cut a 1-1/2 diam hole in the lid. Sitting on the marbles the top of the glue bottle pokes up through the lid.


Back to mastering HHG now.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:07 pm ]
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Zach,


The hold heet pots do tend to run a little hot. This is not nessarily a bad thing, in small doses and if you keep circulating your glue. The main thing is they are well made and consistent with temerature.


I mix a batch of glue and then cook it in the regular aluminum liner. After its dissolved, I put the rest of the glue in a container, let it cool and store it in the fridge. Cut it into chunks as needed through the day/week. This keeps the glue circulation up rarther than reaheating the glue constantly. 


Leftovers in the jar/pot? Well, thats a judgment call depending on how long its been in the pot and what you need to glue next. Sometimes I save it for marquerterie or inlay. (yes, hide glue is perfect for shell and wood inlays!)


My glue sits around 145-150 in the jar. Around 150-155 in the aluminum pot / without the full water jacket. I really dont think that it is any problem.


Mario! thanks for the tip! Im not terribly worried however, my big old sign works great. What I love about the hold heet pots is that they are made to last forever (a Lie Nielsen of glue pots), and dont burn out like them flimsy crock pots. And yes, before the sign I always used to leave the pot on all night! (which some people, I should note, do on purpose!)



 


 


 
Author:  KThomas [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:15 pm ]
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Thanks again everyone, great info!
Author:  KiwiCraig [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:11 am ]
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A word of warning to hot glue users glueing braces. I quote from one of my piano building text books ( Wolfenden)

" The most important thing to observe is that the ends should not be made so thin as that the moisture of the air in damp places can easily penetrate to affect the glue ; 1/8 in. to 3/16 in. is a usual and fairly safe thickness " end quote.

This is especially relevant to those who are feathering their brace ends to nothing and not tucking into the liners.A coat of shellac ( may ) help in this regard. Piano soundboards are coated both sides B.T.W.

I have been using hot glue in my piano trade for over 35 years and love the stuff. It was my job as an apprentice to mix a batch for the other tuners in the workshop when required , and gained a real fondness for the stuff ,but there are certain applications where glues other than hot glue may be more suitable.

There is good reason for guitar builders such as George Lowden and others to continue using yellow glue.

Hot glue seems to have become trendy among guitar builders of late. I think some of these "hot glue snobs " ,mostly with little hot glue experience , should maybe rethink a little.

Air will penetrate through spruce 1/8" to 3/16 " or thinner and degenerate the glue over time



Cheers, Craig Lawrence
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:13 pm ]
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Craig,


No offence to you and your experience, but honestly, what a load of BS.


There are countless fine violins, cellos, upright bass and guitars that have survived in perfect structoral condition for many, many years. One of the most abused guitars I have ever seen is in my workshop now for extensive restoration. The inside of the guitar is thick with dirt and bug coccons after being left in a hawaiian garden shed for more than 20 years. The guitar was made in the early 1930's. Some of the joints on the back had come loose...everywhere EXCEPT the last few inches brace ends...supposedly where your "air" will get them first! Top braces, linings, bridge and seams are perfect.


Weissenborns are notorious for glue squeeze out. On many you can see the air bubbles from within the glue, captured in time as the glue cooled. Anyone who has done more than a few repairs knows that hide glue joints take a bit of undoing, even with water and heat.


I look forward to your reply, but please dont post your scare tactics here. I just dont see how hearsay advise is good for the advancing of our fine craft.


Hide glue is not difficlut to use. One of the most frustrating things for me is to see how many amatuers and pros get scared off from using this exceptional hot setting adhesive by these sorts of comments and inexperienced advise. 


Tony
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:25 pm ]
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Kiwi.... What kind of BS nonsense was that?
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