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Buffing Wheels and Compounds
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1510		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  BruceH [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:52 am ]
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Hi All,
I’m getting set up to buff out my first two guitars and need some advice on buffing wheels and compounds. I’ll be buffing out the Target 9000 finish.
What type wheels do I need? Muslin, Canton, Flannel, loose, stitched, spiral stitched?
Where is the best place to buy?
Which compounds do I need? There is a bewildering array.
Thanks!
BruceH
Author:  Jimmie D [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:12 am ]
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Hi Bruce,
I just got throught buffing out #'s 2,3 and 4. I used the Menzerna fine and xtra fine compounds with 10" flannel buffs. I used 2 buffs put together for each grade of compound. It worked great. I think if I had it to do over, I would probably get the 14" buffs and put 3 of them together. I got my stuff from Grizzly. Their prices seemed to be pretty good from what I was able to find. Good luck.
Author:  Mario [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:12 am ]
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StewMac wheels and compounds work well. I use their coarse(3169) and extra fine(3170).
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:22 am ]
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Grizzly sells the Menzerna compound a little cheaper than Stewmac -- This is what I use too.

Menzerna link

Somewhere buried in the archives is an chart that gives you the Grizzly id number for the Stewmac product.LanceK38441.4329050926
Author:  Josh H [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:44 am ]
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I also use the Menzerna. I sand to 1500 then go the the medium compound on my buffer. I finish up with the fine.

Josh
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:48 am ]
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Bruce...I'm interested in your experience with the Target 9000 material.

Also, please keep us posted on how it buffs out. I'm planning on doing the buff out soon as well.

Thanks...
Author:  Mario [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:12 am ]
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remember my warnings about the 9000. wait too long, and it will be really tough to buff out. One week is good, two weeks is bad, 3 are really bad <g>

Opposit of nitro....
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:23 am ]
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Thanks for the reminder, Mario. I may be forced into the "bad" category because of this crazy schedule.

Once buffed out, how long does it take to reach total cure-out (ultimate hardness)?
Author:  Mario [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:35 am ]
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Not sure when it is ultimately as hard as it gets, but at about 3 weeks, it is tough. Not "hard" per say, but "tough".

IF that makes sense?

Like, glass is hard, but plexiglass is tough, kinda deal...

I've seen full burn-in of repairs/touchups up to about a month; after that, you get witness marks for sure. So, seems that it full cross links at about one month.

I buff at the 3 day mark, then once again a few days later.

I'd guess that if you go finer in the sanding grits before buffing, you'll be okay with the long wait. May even be best; we'll see when you get there.Mario38441.4840740741
Author:  Jimmie D [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:56 am ]
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I use their coarse(3169) and extra fine(3170)[COLOR=RED]

Mario,
What grit do you stop at before you go to the course compound?
Author:  Mario [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:52 am ]
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Depends on the finish and the piece. Nitro, I stop at 800. Target 9000 I stop at 2000. Polyester, well, I am still working on a system <bg>

On the shank of the neck, with the 9000, I stop at 800, too. I use the 2000 for the ebony headplates which are really fussy....
Author:  BruceH [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:54 am ]
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Thanks for the help, guys. I'm using a 3450 RPM motor, so I'm limited to 8" wheels. How would these work for the coarse grit, and these for the fine? fine
coarse

JJ - I tried buffing the 9000 this weekend, but met with limited success. I was just using a handheld drill with a lambs wool buffer. It worked great on the nitro that I used on my mandolin, but wasn't up to the job with the 9000. I ended up burning through in one spot, so I'm recoating and putting together a better buffing system. The 9000 is a totally different animal. It doesn't burn together like nitro, instead, it must be mechanically ground smooth. It reminds me of polishing out a telescope mirror. With that, you have to progress slowly through the grits and a complete polish takes a long time.   
I do like working with this stuff. It dries fast, sands easily, and is odorless. Hopefully I can get it buffed to suit me. Please keep us updated on your progress as well.
BruceH
Author:  Jimmie D [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:58 am ]
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Thanks Mario,

I should have mentioned it was nitro. I started buffing after one guitar after 2000. I did the other 2 after 1200. I just didn't see that much difference in going up through the higher grits for nitro, especially for the amount of time involved.
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:49 am ]
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3450 is really fast. What's your pulley sizes? You might burn through several finishes if your gear ratio isn't right....
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:51 am ]
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Bruce, I agree with Terry. You should be running about half that speed, or less, with the 8" buffs.
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:59 am ]
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i agree with terry and dave.

using 12" buffs, a 1725rpm motor and a 2:1 pulley reduction ratio my set up gives about 33000 in/min of buffing. your 3450 and 8 buffs, if direct drive, gives about 87000 in/min. this is a recipe for burn through, or gummed and messy finish. you need at least a 5:2 reduction ration to keep your speed in the safe range.

michael mcclain
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:03 am ]
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Not sure where I got this, maybe Bourgoius??? MIMF????But I printed it and pasted right on my buffing arbor (which has 2 12" double buffs, 1725 rpm motor with 2" motor pulley, and a triple pulley on the arbor shaft, not sure of those sizes, it came with it though)I can measure if need be. Since you're using 8", you'll have to do the math, but slow down your speed for sure...

Nitro:
Course-800 rpm
Fine-1125 rpm


Waterbourne
Course-1200 rpm
Fine-1550 rpm


Hope this helps...
Author:  BruceH [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:46 pm ]
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Thanks for setting me straight. I'm still in the process of building my buffing rig, so I'll reduce my speed as you guys suggest. (I was using the buffing speed information from caswell plating which I now realize is for buffing metal. Duh.)

I think that I'll go with 12" buffs too.

Terry - Thanks for the rpm info. How much power do you need to run the double 12's? I'm using a 3/4 hp motor.
Thanks,
BruceH
Author:  Mario [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:50 pm ]
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I run a 1/3hp with 10" buffs. A little under-powered, but that helps to prevent me from pushing my luck <g>
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:20 pm ]
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terry

i'm not familiar with the source of your rpm info, and i have yet to use waterbourne. yes, i'm still in a time warp using nitro. but i have been considering trying it and from what i have read you have to be more heat,i.e. friction conscious using the waterbourne stuff as it will go soft and gum up on you if it gets too hot.

i have seen recommendations saying to use only one buff per end of the arbor and to keep the rpm's down to avoid heat buildup. i think this may have been either in stew-mac info or in the lmi guidebook. going slower won't hurt, just take longer; going too fast will damage your finish.

i suppose all the warnings are one of the reasons i'm still blowing nitro. they seemed to indicate that it would take longer to buff out the waterbournes and standing in front of a buffer is not one of my favourite aspects of building.

michael mcclaincrazymanmichael38442.0396412037
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:29 pm ]
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Mario...I wet-sanded to 12,000 Micro Mesh and was fairly pleased with the sheen. I hope to get it on the buffing wheels after a 2-3 week rest. Who knows what's in store but you guys will be the first to know? Thanks for the reminder to keep it cooler than nitro.

Bruce...I'd be interested in your spraying schedule with the 9000. I posted a rather long protocol on a different thread last week. Check it out.
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:26 am ]
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[QUOTE=BruceH]
Terry - Thanks for the rpm info. How much power do you need to run the double 12's? I'm using a 3/4 hp motor.
Thanks,
BruceH[/QUOTE]

I am using a 1/3 hp. Wow. I didn't realize is was THAT small...It's a refurbished washing machine motor I think. I have warmed up the motor a couple times, so it's little underpowered, but I just don't push it too hard. It's reset button indicates that if it does overheat, it'll shut down anyway.

I'd think that a 3/4 hp would work fine for low production. If I find onother one at a yard sale, I will definitely upgrade, even to 1 hp. More power, more power! !
Author:  bob J [ Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:09 am ]
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Do you use the buffing apparatus sold by S/M andLMI?
Author:  BruceH [ Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:49 am ]
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JJ,
My spraying schedule is to hope the get a shop with a spray booth in the next couple of years Until then, I've been using a brush. I used a foam brush and put on four coats per day - two hours between coats. I lightly scuff sanded after each four coats. I put 8 on the top and 12 on back/sides. I buffed through the top in one spot, and the rest of the top had that sunken-between-the-growth-lines look, so I think that I was pushing my luck. I put on a few more coats on the top and will let you know how it goes next week. Now I've got to hustle to get my buffer finished before it's too late....
BruceH
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:48 am ]
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Hi,

If you're asking me, Terry, yes, I have the Stew-Mac buffing arbor. I bought it off eBay RIGHT before Shopfox started selling them for a whole bunch less!
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