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CNC Parts II
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14965		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  bob J [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:27 pm ]
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First, I, in no way wanted to cast aspersions toward John, or any other member here.
Those who are familiar with my intercourse with this Form can easily see I 95% ask questions and ,sorry, only 5% information-with humor thrown in as much as possible. I knew nothing of any ongoing problems.
As far as I can see, John's products are excellent-that's of course why I wanted to buy his products, but did not see any for sale.
For those I upset with what I believed to be an innocent question,,I would have pm'd me and informed me of the concern(s) and I would have posted an apology and explanation. I believe this to be the gentlemanly way to handle the problem instead of throwing me under the bus for having dastardly motives. Can't we just get along?
Author:  Kim [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:06 pm ]
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Bob,

I am sure that no-one holds anything against you. A quick look at your past input to the OLF will clearly show that you are a nice guy

That said, I also think that Paul Woolson had a good point in his reply to your question in CNC Mk1. You state above that you ask a lot of questions and we all appreciate that but when those questions are directed towards someones business, maybe you should try a PM yourself before posting so openly.

Anyhow, keep them guitar questions coming dude, the more you ask, the more we all learn.

Peace and season greetings to all, who knows maybe a great Xmas presi for us all will see CNC Parts up and running before too much longer. One thing I can say for sure, and this is from personal experience, all good things are worth the wait and the products offered by John Watkins are no exception

Cheers

Kim
Author:  bob J [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:47 pm ]
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Thanks Kim,
my sole motivation for the question was to ascertain if I could purchase his products. I have had 3 bodies for quite a while that weep every night for their lack of a neck
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:52 am ]
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Hi Bob. I'm just finishing up a guitar with John's neck. It's GREAT. One suggestion. I got a predrilled one, and due to my own shortsightedness, got it misaligned b/c of the sanding of the top of the rimset. I didn't have a jig to mortise my own and thought I'd save a few minutes. That mistake cost a lot of time, moer than it took to make a quickie jig to fix it. I had to fill the mortise, plug the holes, make a jig to re-rout the mortise , make a 1/4" rod with a point to locate where to redrill the holes. So I'm visiting Todd to build a proper jig. No more pre-drilled/pre routed blocks for me!


On behalf of my brothers, sorry for the hogpile. That spun outa control
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:57 am ]
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Oh I shoulda looked before posting... too hurried


I got a predrilled one should read "I GOT A PREDRILLED, PREMORTISED NECK BLOCK"
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:19 am ]
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So if you've got three bodies for quite a while that weep every night for the lack of necks, then why don't you just make three necks?

Anyone contemplating having CNC necks made should **** well better know how to make necks by hand. Bob Taylor does. Jean Larrivee does. Bill Collings does.   They are real luthiers, folks, not wannabes.
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:55 am ]
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What Rick said.
Author:  S .Hlasnick [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:02 am ]
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Are we just going to continue to beat this guy down? He is obviously sorry. He put his foot in his mouth, and he admits it. We should move on. Who hasn't but their foot in there mouth at one point or another?Everyone approaches building differently, that's one of the things that makes lutherie so beautiful and interesting-----Snick
Author:  Rod True [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:03 am ]
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Isn't it OK to be a wannabe Rick? We all know your the quintessential luthier as you keep reminding us, but lots of folks here enjoy this as a hobby and nothing more.

I like to golf, I think it's fun but I'm certainly never going to be Tiger Woods.

I like to play hockey, it gives me a great workout and I love the team games, but I'm never going to be Wayne Gretzky.

I love to play music, some rock and roll, some other genre's too but I know I'm never going to be Tommy Emmanuel or ever make my living by playing music.

I like to work on my truck, get all greasy etc... but I'm never going to be a professional mechanic.

I like to make guitars and I've even been told by professional musicians that I make a great sounding guitar, but... It's never going to be my profession.

At the end of the day, if someone here is having fun making guitars isn't this OK? Or are we all just doing the guitar world a dis-service for having a hobby? I don't think the pro's in the furniture world really care any less that there are thousands of hobbyist wood workers out there making tables and chairs and book cases etc...or professional mechanics because of back yard grease monkeys...or professional sports players don't care that so many want to do the same thing they love to do...

What do hobbies do to an industry? Do they kill an industry or do they heighten the awareness of that industry. I would think it a good thing that people take interest in what professionals and try and emulate those professionals because what it actually does for those professionals is to make more people aware that they are out there. Doesn't this hold true for the guitar making world too? I certainly think it does. You know what, before I ever started to make guitars I only knew of about 3 maybe 4 names of professional luthiers out there. Now, I know about 100+ professionals and my awareness of how large this industry is has greatly increased. I see that as a good thing.

The assumption is that those who buy CNC necks (or any other pre-made parts for that matter) don't know how to make that same neck or part by hand, you know what they say about assumptions...

Anyway...

Bob, keep at it dude and have fun.
Author:  Bobc [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:07 am ]
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Looks like I picked the wrong thread to post my reply in so I am reposting it here.

As`a`senior member of this forum it has always been my policy to avod controversial posts. After reading Bob J's CNC post I feel the need to respond. Being freinds of both John W. and Bob J
I can assure there is not a malicious bone in Bob J's body. His post was a totally innocent question. Knowing Bob as I do I am sure he was horrified at some of the replies. John W. responded like the true gentleman that he is. In the spirit of the Holiday Season may I suggest we stick to "beers & cheers" rather than "tears & fears."

Warm regards to all
"The Zootman"
Author:  S .Hlasnick [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:14 am ]
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Well said Bob. Happy Holidays-----Snick
Author:  TommyC [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:16 am ]
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Thanks Rod True! Thats the whole purpose of the Forum, at least I thought,
helping people become better guitar makers and having fun while doing it.
Can you believe the gaul of those model airplane makers? They actually use
injection molded parts! Incompetent Ninny's! I would definetly carve my own
out of out of plastic because I am far superior to them.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:42 am ]
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Geeze Rod.... you don't have to have a baby over it....

Folks Rod is currently counting down the hours to once again becoming a very proud papa!!!!

Rick let's discuss this by having a "discussion" - you know no offense intended - just an exchange of ideas.  I assure you that the following remarks by me have no ill intent.

I doubt that on your guitars the necks, bridges, what ever are all hand carved by you or any lone human.  Instead I suspect that you employ levels of technology that may include CNC, perhaps some outsourcing, or a duplicarver situation, etc.

Does this represent hypocracy?   Not in my opinion.  You are always speaking  of the players and that all we do is in fact for the musicians who create the music that drives our industry.

With CNC necks and bridges a maker, builder, factory, is able to replace a damaged part with exactly the same part.  A bridge that fits precisely into the foot print in the finish, a neck with a profile that the player is accustomed to, etc.  It is this interchangeability of exactly the same parts that IMHO also represents real value to customers.  They can get their guitars repaired without the need for someone to hand carve a one-off part and get it exactly right.

CNC'd parts also permit makers and factories to provide better guitars at less cost.  These are all good things for players are they not?

I agree that it's important for any one who eventually wants to call themselves a luthier to be able to make the entire guitar, sands the commercially available tuners, strings, pick guards, etc.  But I also believe that this should not limit any one from exploring their own level of interest in lutherie.

And at the end of the day we all will do what ever we wish any way so who cares.......

Again with no offense intended you also preach that we all need to spend 35 - 40 years in the repair business.......  Yet you tell us that you glue your bridges on directly over the finish, poly, with CA.

Now I am not in the know as to if this is a good thing to do or not.  But I highly suspect that if this question were asked to others who make their livings doing repair work that they would have a bone to pick with you over gluing bridges directly onto the finish of a guitar with CA.....  How repairable is that?

I personally greatly respect you Rick even though I hate the belittling remarks and putting people down.  And I am even willing to go so far as to say that if Rick Turner glues his bridges directly onto the finish with CA he must know what he is doing.  And I believe that you do know what you are doing.  But you know as well as I do that repair people will balk at this practice.

But you see this is just one of the many, many areas of Lutherie where we are not going to always agree with each other.  And throwing value judgments at others only hurts the learning process for us all.

I would like to see everyone have the ability to make a neck too.  But I also know that it's a better bet that this will or may happen if they don't get chased away from Lutherie early on before the bug has hopelessly bitten them.

This is a dead horse issue and it benefits no one for any one to stick their chest out and proclaim that their chops are better then the chops of others over if a CNC neck is used or not...... 





Author:  Mark Maquillan [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:46 am ]
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After seeing the Tiger Myrtle Olson no one has to tell me I'm just a wannabe. I did order a rough cut neck blank to start learning to carve. Many of you guys say that its one of the best parts of building. Another good part of building is this forum. Its quite a look at the nature of man.
Author:  stan thomison [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:49 am ]
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Rick though does have a point that gets debate here a lot.

I have had more problems of necks and attachments than any part of building. It would be easier to just get them, but need to know how to make them and get them on right. Easier is best, does't matter if pro or hobby. I would rather know how to do it and mess up some until get it down, than do nothing becuase I have to wait on a pre made or get someone to do it for me. I did that in the past and it hurt my ability to build more. It turned into a fear of doing them or even trying.

I was told by a friend and the guy I think of as my mentor to get over it. Figure out the process and do it. If can't figure things out and learn to do them your just hurting your self whether a pro or hobbiest. You lose the enjoyment of making something harder and not want to do into an accomplishment to your building bones. Figuring a problem out and planning something and doing it is part of this and other things in life. Again, easier (which appears not to have been the case here) isn't always the best or easier. Why do 60% of soemthing you can learn to do 100%

I have been in shop where get CNC pre made necks. But almost anyone in that shop can make a neck and put it on, and have. They get the pre mades now due to putting out 8-10 guitars a week and it makes the production faster. I can say though, if something happened, the could put a couple of guys on necks and still keep building along.

Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:01 am ]
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The point is that anyone who wants to build guitars ought not to get hung up on waiting for CNC'd necks and then whine that their three guitar bodies are weeping and lonely...and then go complaining about it here.   Besides which, if you want a rough carved CNC'd neck there are multiple sources...StewMac, for instance, has 'em.

But really, what's the problem with hand carving necks if you can't get them CNC'd?

And what does this have to do with gluing bridges? What I do works for me.   Maybe I should simply hold some of my techniques secret so I don't get ***** slapped by some of you.

I've carved necks with a drawknife and spokeshave. I've carved necks with a shaper and a #50 rasp. I carve a lot of necks on a pin router and an oscillating spindle sander. And I love CNC carved necks.   But I try not to let the lack of an outsourced part stop me in my tracks, particularly something as easy to make as a neck.

The true mark of a hand builder is knowing how to make all the wood parts of a guitar by hand...down literally to hand tools if need be.   Once you know that, then it simply doesn't matter how you make the parts because the knowledge of what is right is right there in your hands.

This is starting to remind me of the people who buy Strat kits...fully sanded bodies and necks from a place like Warmoth, hardware elsewhere, pickups from Duncan, etc., then slap a couple of coats of rattle can lacquer on the thing...and then say they built the guitar.

Just make three necks and be done with it. It's no big deal...if you really want to be a guitar maker.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:05 am ]
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By the way, this is "The Official Luthier's Forum".   I think that an official luthier should be able to carve a guitar neck...by hand.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:15 am ]
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner]


And what does this have to do with gluing bridges? What I do works for me.   Maybe I should simply hold some of my techniques secret so I don't get ich slapped by some of you.



[/QUOTE]

Sorry you took this personally - perhaps it may be easier to understand how some may take your remarks personally and as a put down as well?

What it has to do with how you attach your bridges is nothing at all.  But the point is that you are doing something differently, you are free to do so, more power to ya - what's the problem with accepting that others have the same rights as you?

You didn't answer my question as to if you use CNC in the production of your guitars but that's OK.  Again you have every right to do as you wish - so does everyone else here.  This is my point.

Rick your input, experience, and sharing is greatly valued - know this please.
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:32 am ]
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Stan and Rick have said it best, with Stan getting the nod.This is a luthier's forum. How can we help if you outsource your parts, then come here complaining that you're at a standstill because the supply is dried up at this time?I have my logo cut for me. Big deal. I can cut my own with an eye patch over an eye if the supply dried up.And for the life of me, I can't understand why we'd let someone else make our parts when we're at the hobby level. Pro, sure, at some point it becomes basic economics, but even Rick was in business for decades before his first CNC, right? yes, a pre cut neck makes your work easier and faster, but if you're a hobbiest, what's the rush? Ask yourselves is th goal is making a guitar, or having a guitar. If it's making it, then by god, make it. If it's simply to have one, but te wole ****** thing at Elderly's and be done wit it. Takes no time that way <bg>friends are always trying to "help" me through my backlog with nice tips. tips like "why don't you have someone else make your necks for you?" Or "can't you find a place that will do your finish work?" "why do you make your own bindings and purflings? Can't you just buy those"Well, the answer is that I enjoy all of that. Yes, i could outsource pretty dang well everything. I could simply call LMI and have them make me kits to my specs. Everything would be done. I would just have to assemble them and add my(CNC cut) logo. But I may as well shut down and go back to Engineering before going down that route, because then I'd be nothing more than a self employed assembly line of 1. a plain 'ol carbon based robot, toiling alone, applying glue and clamping, then sending off the completed parts to be finished.Ask yourselves what the goal is, then ask yourself why you're on this forum? Are you here to learn how to build an instrument? Or are you here just to elarn how to assemble one? ad before you answer, scroll back up and re-read Stan's post. His friend and mentor is none other than Bill Moll, who via long distance and internet, also mentored me greatly(and if you think I can be blunt when trying to get my message across, ya don't wanna mess with Bill <bg> His beard probably had no white in it at all until I came along)carry-on!<div style=": ; width: 28px; height: 28px; : 1000; display: none;">
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:03 am ]
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"I've carved necks with a drawknife and spokeshave. I've carved necks with a shaper and a #50 rasp. I carve a lot of necks on a pin router and an oscillating spindle sander. And I love CNC carved necks.   But I try not to let the lack of an outsourced part stop me in my tracks, particularly something as easy to make as a neck."

Maybe that statement was too subtle.

I have a CNC machine, and some of our parts, but not all that can, do come off of it.   I can't wait 'til every part that can be CNC'd is CNC'd.   And I'm keeping all of my conventional jigs, fixtures, and templates so when the CNC machine goes down, I can go back to using my pin router.   And I'm keeping all my spokeshaves, drawknives, rasps, and sand paper so when the power goes out I can keep on working by candle light...

I built my first instruments with no more power equipment than a Craftsman electric drill using a bow saw instead of a band saw. I hand laid out fret slots and cut them with a modified thin kerf dovetail saw with a hand made miter box. I did my first inlays with tiny chisels. And I'm happy to move on to a CNC machine, but I'll not be stopped in my tracks if it breaks.

For anyone who wants to "build by hand", I can think of few tasks that are as satisfying as carving necks.   It's a wonderful and sensuous task that offers immediate tactile feedback. Why not enjoy the process rather than be hung up for an apparently elusive outsourced product?
And what are you going to do when a client wants a different neck profile or width or scale length? My current conventional power tool roughing system allows me to tweak all specs, get a rough machined neck in the ballpark, and then I (we, really) can finish hand carving a very custom neck in less than half an hour. No big deal...
Author:  charliewood [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:08 am ]
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Not just in response to this situation but in response to alot of the mini dramas I have seen here at the OLF,

It seems to me that 95% of misunderstandings here at the OLF are caused when someone else takes it upon themselves to defend a certain persons good name.... and 5% are legitimate beefs between 2 or more contenders..

Perhaps we should only repsond personally to any percieved slights on our own good name -
because in the end.. it seems like 95% of these disagreements are mere misunderstandings caused by
poorly worded statements,
statements typed hastily,
and sometimes plain overreactions to something someone has typed, in which they did not really meaning anything by it,,, and it being made into a Federal case.

There is alot of great friendship here at the OLF and thats really part of what makes this place really really cool... and there is a real pride in other members here, people especially love the vendors too,,, both of which are also great!!
Its just that Ive noticed that when someone comes to someone elses aid here, and defends them.... sometimes they react even more aggressively than the person who the "percieved slight" was intended would have, or does...
does this make sense?
Anyhow........
This is just an observation.... and as I said not directly intended for this discussion alone,,,
and mabye I shouldnt suggest this - I dunno
but if alot of misunderstndings are generated this way... perhaps it would be a good way to solve this issue,,,
Cheers
Charlie
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:16 am ]
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Hmmmmph. I totally missed the original thread; not unusual for me, especially if it was about someone seeking a CNC'd neck.

One the one hand, if you can build the box you can build a neck, and what is a hobbyist doing this for if not the satisfaction of making a whole guitar? On the other hand, maybe that's not why he's doing it, and that's his business. Maybe his satisfaction comes from making a box and putting a CNC'd neck on it.

Some of the most respected and well-known hand builders are getting CNC'd parts. There's a grey area between being able to say I built it (with some CNC'd parts that I could have made myself but I decided to operate a little more like a factory and make more guitars and more profit and the parts are at least as good as the one's I would have made anyway), and being able to legitimately only say I assembled it. The line isn't clear, but it still can be clear that some work is on one side or the other. I do know someone who has been in this business a long time who a lot of people think is a guitar maker who has never built a guitar--he assembles parts from Warmoth and calls it a guitar he built. There are "makers" who have guitars built for them; some are upfront about how it works, while others are misleading and call these guitars that they made. . . . Wait, where was I . . .?

Oh, yeah, a hobbyist can choose what she's in this for, I think. Where it starts to affect others is when those guitars are entered into the stream of commerce. As to Rod's question, "What do hobbies do to an industry? Do they kill an industry or do they heighten the awareness of that industry. I would think it a good thing that people take interest in what professionals and try and emulate those professionals because what it actually does for those professionals is to make more people aware that they are out there. Doesn't this hold true for the guitar making world too?": there are many fine crafts that are made by hobbyists, some of whom are quite good at it, that get sold cheaply because the maker doesn't try to make a living at it and perhaps is modest about her work. This can bring down the prices and affect professionals. Not those at the top, but those in the middle or trying to get started as professionals. Nothing can be done about that, and it should be expected by those entering the business. But the least that a hobbyist who is not making a substantial portion of the guitar himself is not call it a handmade or guitar he built himself if he is selling it. That devalues the work of real handbuilders. Be clear that you made part, and bought and assembled part.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:19 am ]
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Oy, left out "should do" after the first "himself" in the next to last sentence.

Hey, I hear that there is forum software that allows something called "editing."
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:20 am ]
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No, it was the sentence before that one.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:57 am ]
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Rick, Grumpy and Stan well said
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