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I'm gonna experiment with HHG. I have a friend with and old cast iron double boiler type glue pot he said I could have. It has a coating of rust inside thats needs to be cleaned thats all. After each use with the glue do you need to clean out the pot or can you leave any leftover glue cool and just reheat and use again? Does the glue degrade with multiple heatings. Just wondering. Mike

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Use the pot to keep water hot, and keep the glue either in a small jar, or in a small bottle, instead of directly in the pot.

Not sure if the glue weakens after repeated heatings, but I use the small bottle deal, and I add to the bottle nearly every day, so it's not an issue here. I suggest you adopt a similar system, where you're not making a month's worth of glue and re-heat it every day....

Most everyone uses a hot pot of some kind, like the Rival Hot Pot. On the low setting it maintains approx. 145F.

Also, most everyone uses plastic reuseable bottles with dispenser spout, clean and reuse.

Left over glue can be stored for a while in the fridge. Batches can actually be stored in the freezer. I make mine up fresh each time. Others go for the overnight water soak then heat and use.

If it's growing hair or smells like old pair of socks, toss it.

It should have a good consistency, a little less viscosity than Titebond, but more than warm maple syrup.

Good luck, great glue.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I'll add to what the others have said that when I mix up a batch it goes in little 2 oz. bottles and in the fridge.  Use distilled water to slow the grown of mold.  I have reheated a bottle about 5 times but no more and always with in the course of a month.  I never let the bottles sit out so they are either being heated or in the fridge.

When it is a month old I pitch it.

Never heat it above 150 degrees or it will alter the composition of the glue and it will no longer be any good.  About 145 degrees is ideal.

Todd Stock has a Rival hot pot that not only holds the glue bottles but it has a suspended jar for brushing on the glue.  He also has found a brush that works very well for brushing HHG.

So yes you can reheat it so long as you take care of it in between uses and again I have only reheated 5 times so that is all I can comment on.

One of the many great tips that I got from Mario is to get some stainless bolts that will fit in the glue bottle, degrease the bolt, and place it in the bottle with the glue.  Kind of like a rattle can spray paint can.  The weight of the bolt helps to hold the bottle upright in the water.

My bottles come from US Plastics, I like the 2 oz ones, and I have heard that you can get these same squeeze bottles at a beauty supply house.  Just disguise your self prior to going in there...... so no one sees you.......

A big thanks to Mario for his system...

I mix up a batch and fill half a dozen 2 oz. bottles with the bolt/weights in them and then freeze them.   I have an old style glue pot, and I just fill it with water instead of glue and drop a bottle in. It thaws in about 25 minutes and is ready to go all day.   One of the great things is that it doesn't skin over in the bottle, making the glue much easier to use, and I suspect holding the glue at a much higher quality level.   Once you get into it, it's no more trouble than Titebond or LMI white glue for most jobs. Another big plus is that HHG doesn't clog the very expensive belts on my wide belt sander when I run a bunch of tops and backs through.

I recently read a discussion of HHG on a woodworking forum by "experts."  One warning they gave which I have not seen mentioned on luthier forums is that if the glue is frozen too quickly then it is damaged. 

I'd pull it out of my history, but I was at work (don't tell the boss).

[QUOTE=Hesh] Just disguise your self prior to going in there...... so no one sees you.......
[/QUOTE]

Hesh, don't hate me because I'm beautiful!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Larry buddy I could never hate you but who told you that you are beautiful?????

Has anyone use both HHG and Fish glue to the extent that they can make comparisons (other than the obvious hot vs. cold one.....).

I was introduced to fish glue this past summer in Spain after many decades of Titebond use and through the generosity of Mike Collins (thanks Mike!) I have a small supply that I'm continuing to use. For some operations I'm sticking (pun intended) to the Titebond but for others the fish glue seems ideal. I'm ignoring the inevitable tonal comparison but would be happy to hear anyone's take on this as well.......... 

 

There's fish glue and there's fish glue.   From my research, the very best of it is "isinglass" made from the air bladders of sturgeon. It's supposed to be the most humidity and moisture proof of all fish glue which has a reputation for failing under wet conditions as it is very hygroscopic. You can get sturgeon bladder isinglass from several art conservation suppliers here in the 'States.

After doing some trials on Fish Glue, I will be using it to adhere tops and backs. I've used HHG with success over 4 years on all joints and can see no significant difference between the 2 as far as bond strength. I used FG on a massive repair job on a finished guitar under the tutelage of David Collins with successful results...I could never have done it with HHG.

I will continue to use HHG for all other joints since I actually like its fast setup for those operations. I look forward to the more relaxed pace of joining the plates however and will have further comments at that time.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

For brushing, I just unscrew the top off the bottle and dip the brush. It's not like we're brushing, then usng the applicator tip, then brushing again the next minute. Makes it easy to bring the bottle and brush to the work.

Something never mentioned with the bottle is what Rick noticed; it doesn't skin over, and its consistency remains stable over the entire day.
In an open jar or pot, we were constantly adding water and stirring the pot(so to speak). That couldn't be good for the glue.

Rick, I bring my water to temperature quickly with the electric kettle, then add that to the pot. Glue's ready in under 5 minutes....

I bought a bag of HHG from LeeValley. They say it is high strength a 260. They supplied a paper that says to mix 3 parts glue with 2 parts water. I mixed it this way and it cooled so fast you can't get it to spread on your part without it jelling.

I was wondering how you guys dilute your HHG?
Anyone else use the LeeValley stuff?

davido

Here is an excellent Tutorial from our friend Hesh on the preparation of HHG.

Also here's another HHG Tutorial from a violin maker here in Ontario.

Question I have for you gentlemen; from Hesh's tutorial I see that LMI sells 192 gram strength. The violin maker referenced above recommends 315 gram strength. Do you vary the strength of the hide glue you use based on the application or are you consistently using 192-195 gram strength?

Anthony just posted something I was about to ask, I've been using hide glue in the 190 gram strength range with no problems.  I just finished a Ditson dreadnought copy with a pyramid bridge and have not problem with steel strings on this small bridge footprint.

I got a sample of Topaz S from Europe some time back, it has a much higher gram strength, above 250gms.  Is this overkill?  I've heard that the working time is shortened considerably the higher the gram strength. Anybody had any experience with type of HHG?  I'm not sure I want to change something that's worked so well.

Must admit, I am considering epoxy for the fingerboards after the recent discussion here and ordered the West product.  May try it...

Bruce

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Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

Almost all of us who use HHG for guitar work use the 192 gram strength. That's what LMI sells.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Well I just picked up a bunch of 2oz bottles on ebay. I have a single burner and a small cast iron pot. I guess i can rig something to suspend the bottles in the water. I have a kitchen type thermometer to monitor the temp. I'm supprised that not many of you's use the old iron glue pot and brush method. I know a couple of violin repairmen and thats all they use.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Get some glass marbles and put them in the bottom of the pot.  They willk keep things sufficiently suspended -- top o' the hat to Hesh!

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Almost all of us who use HHG for guitar work use the 192 gram strength. That's what LMI sells.[/QUOTE]

Ok. Are all 190 gram strength Hide Glues created equal? Lee Valley for example, sells Hide Glue in that strength and recommends that it be used for veneering.

I've read that not only is it created equal, but it is created by the one and only company in North America that still makes it -- Hudson Glue Corp, now Milligan and Higgins.  The 'local' brands are just repackaged.  There might very well be other manufacturers in Europe.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Why use the old stinky glue pot and have to deal with skimmed over funky glue and a messy brush when the "Mario Method" is just so easy.   You can also squirt the glue on a broad surface and then brush it around if need be, or we make squeegies out of the cores of foam brushes...they have a little flexible plastic paddle attached to a nice wooden handle, and they're perfect for spreading glue.   We use them for brushing on Waterlox and then peel off the foam and recycle the core as the glue spreaders.

I been told that a lot of european hide glues can contain mold a bacteria growth. Is this true with the american made glue.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

[QUOTE=FishtownMike] I been told that a lot of european hide glues can contain mold a bacteria growth. Is this true with the american made glue.[/QUOTE]

I can't say whether the US version is more or less infected but I have only seen mold growth once. After that I boiled every small plastic bottle before adding HHG. Each time I mix up a batch I sterilize the bottles for 5-10 minutes in boiling water and then fill them.

One other precaution I take is that I only use distilled water. Since doing this, I have never had mold growth again...and I keep mine a lot longer than most do...a month or 2 in the fridge and 9 to 12 months in the freezer.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

It's very simple.

Don't go out of your ways to make it complicated.

'scuse me while I go pound my head against a wall, then finish it up with a 40 pounder 'o rum. fercyrinoutloud....

[QUOTE=Hesh] Larry buddy I could never hate you but who told you that you are beautiful?????
[/QUOTE]

Christina Aguilera...she said I'm beautiful no matter what THEY say!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com