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Putting my neck out there
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14747		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:49 am ]
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In a post a while back Rick wrote asking how many of use have had the courage to put our work in the hand of true professional artists for evaluation. The funny thing was that at the time he wrote his post I was in process of building one just for that purpose.

While I have many regional artists playing my instruments, no one of national recognition. and absolutely no artists play a classical I built. Well after the moderate success of my first commissioned classical and knowing that with the exception of the few classical I have built and the one commission under my belt, all my experience has been with steel strings and electrics. I decided that if I was going to offer classical on an ongoing basis I need an honest and unbiased opinion of the state of my work.

So I went to the the most renown classical player that I know, and presented him with this offer. I build the guitar at my expense and present it to him at no charge in exchange he provides me with an no holds barred honest written critique and permission to publish the critique on my website.

I debated doing this for some time, figuring that I would likely be turned down but to my surprise the offer was graciously excepted. This artist is a world renown classical player. I have been somewhat secretly building this instrument. It is almost done.

Sorry no pictures. I am not going to post any till after I have the review in hand. Then good or bad I will post pictures, the review and hopefully pictures of this artist with the instrument.

I should be delivering it personally in February depending on his performance schedule. If He deems the guitar up to snuff we have agreed to donate the guitar to one of his students unless he should by some fluke take a liking to it.

Anyway for me just getting the critique, good or bad is a good thing. I am a bit nervous as the time of reckoning is getting very close. however for some strange reason I am somewhat confident as well. While I do hope that the review is good I know what I will learn irregardless will be very valuable.

I would be interested to here the experiences of those of you that have done similar.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:08 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=MichaelP] In a post a while back Rick wrote asking how many of use have had the courage to put our work in the hand of true professional artists for evaluation. The funny thing was that at the time he wrote his post I was in process of building one just for that purpose.

While I have many regional artists playing my instruments, no one of national recognition. and absolutely no artists play a classical I built. Well after the moderate success of my first commissioned classical and knowing that with the exception of the few classical I have built and the one commission under my belt, all my experience has been with steel strings and electrics. I decided that if I was going to offer classical on an ongoing basis I need an honest and unbiased opinion of the state of my work.

So I went to the the most renown classical player that I know, and presented him with this offer. I build the guitar at my expense and present it to him at no charge in exchange he provides me with an no holds barred honest written critique and permission to publish the critique on my website.

I debated doing this for some time, figuring that I would likely be turned down but to my surprise the offer was graciously excepted. This artist is a world renown classical player. I have been somewhat secretly building this instrument. It is almost done.

Sorry no pictures. I am not going to post any till after I have the review in hand. Then good or bad I will post pictures, the review and hopefully pictures of this artist with the instrument.

I should be delivering it personally in February depending on his performance schedule. If He deems the guitar up to snuff we have agreed to donate the guitar to one of his students unless he should by some fluke take a liking to it.

Anyway for me just getting the critique, good or bad is a good thing. I am a bit nervous as the time of reckoning is getting very close. however for some strange reason I am somewhat confident as well. While I do hope that the review is good I know what I will learn irregardless will be very valuable.

I would be interested to HEAR the experiences of those of you that have done similar.[/QUOTE]
Author:  stan thomison [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:10 am ]
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If your wanting the the opinion of a world class performer and he is willing to use it and show your work, probably worth putting yourself out there. I would benefit you and in long run a student who may in turn someday be a world class performer.
I used to work in shop who bulit for a world class performer and had a relattionship with a professor of guitar program. He has built many students guitars and bet it will or has become a benefit for him as these folks have plans and pretty much go on as pro's and guess who will look at for those instruments first. His "student" guitars are great guitars that will last for years and IMO and I am not predjudiced because he is a good friend better than can be found in the stores or markets.
Might things not go as good as you wish, sure. Is there a equal chance if not better, they will go as planned, yes. Never get there unless try, so I would say go for it. Worse thing might happen is get feelings hurt, but bet it works out.
Author:  stan thomison [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:11 am ]
Post subject: 
how long to edit and new program or whatever it takes?
Author:  Bill Greene [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:18 am ]
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Michael: that's impressive, and yes that takes some courage. But wow, talk about a way to take years off the learning curve.

Bravo to you. Can't wait to hear how this turns out.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Good luck Michael. I've never had the priveledge of meeting you in person nor playing your guitars but your work ethic, attention to detail and seriousness of purpose is exemplary! Additionally, your generosity as a teacher and history of giving far more on this forum must count for something in the great scheme of things known as Karma. Now it's your turn.

I have a feeling that your neck will survive this test! Good luck and congratulations for taking the risk! We're rooting for you, bro!
Author:  burbank [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Good for you, Michael! Sort of a trial by fire, but as you said, you'll learn a lot, no matter what happens. It being a classical, I'd expect the standards for the deeper, more difficult stuff will be quite high.

I showed my second guitar to some local musicians and the most respected repair people I could find in the area. The hardest part was getting them to speak candidly. I was grateful for all the feedback, but didn't learn anything from those who only had praise. Of those who found faults, what they found spoke volumes about their own perceptiveness.

One thing I learned from this experience is that I can improve my work only in those areas where I'm aware of my shortcomings. Sort of like what I learned in my photography days - 10% is equipment and technique, which are easy, 90% is seeing, which is hard.

What you're about to do takes courage, but I'll bet you'll be glad you did it.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:15 am ]
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Michael I took my first lute in to the Royal College of Music here in London so that my classical teacher, Prof. Charles Ramirez, and the other guitar and lute teachers there could give me a critique on its construction and more importantly, sound. They were critical! But very encouraging. I still play that lute, but it gave me great pointers as to what the professionals at the top of their game thought. Anyway it made my later lutes so much better, so much so that these same people now want me to build lutes and guitars for them.

It can never be a mistake to get an honest critique of your instruments, scary, but never a mistake.

Colin
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Michael, Really gutsy move.

Hmmmm, the only one of National Prominence I know from Texas that plays a classical is..............



















Willie!

Just a wild guess.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:58 am ]
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He is not from Texas, But has a professorship at a university somewhere in the greater southwest, and like I said is a world renown classical artist. I can't say any more at this time.
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:00 am ]
Post subject: 
I took lessons from a local "guitar hero" Lander Ballard. Lander has made a living playing and giving lessons for over 30 years. I would take a new build or repaired guitar to my lesson. He was brutaly honest. I still can't play worth a darn but I did get a better understanding of what Lander wanted with hints on what some other players might want. I think it was money well spent.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:50 am ]
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I thought Willie was from Lukenbock where he found his lost jigger of salt. Him and Waylon and the boys......

Not from Texas, that just chaps my hide.

He needs a new classical though, Trigger has a hole in it.

Good luck Michael, can't wait to hear how this went.
Author:  joe white(old) [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:04 am ]
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Michael, What a great opportunity you have! It sounds like a win'win for everyone involved. Can't wait to read and see the results.
Author:  Marc [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:57 am ]
Post subject: 
It's a good idea; I did something very similar--a review from a university classical guitarist professor. Turned out great, really great in fact, big confidence builder.

It's a little unnerving, good luck, I'm betting you'll get a great review.

Lets see, if I had to guess -- I'm thinking your reviewer might have a similar sounding name to long time member around these parts?
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:23 am ]
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Hi Michael,

Will the guitar have time to "open up" a bit before you present it? I'll bet the evaluation for a brand spankin' new nylon string guitar will be vastly different than an evaluation of a "played hard, and put away wet" nylon string guitar that has seen maybe 90 days of playing time.

My spaghetti sauce sure tastes better on the second day than the first...

Since it is free, I would think he will wait patiently.

Best of luck (you already have the skill.)

Dennis
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:58 am ]
Post subject: 
It will not have 90 days on it but it will have about 30 days of actual play and 10 days of my forced breaking I always place my new instruments in near my speaker cabinet and play similar music to the style of play it is being built for for a couple hours a day at least. Whether this actually helps is debated but in my experience it does seem to speed up the open up process.
Author:  James W B [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:40 am ]
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Good Luck to you Michael.This takes a lot of courage and I admire what you are doing.I`m sure the guitar will turn out spectacular,and it will knock the customer clean out.
                James
Author:  muthrs [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Good luck ,Michael, I'm sure it will be great.

I put my eighth guitar into the hands of David Jacobs-Strain, a young phenomenal (sp?) acoustic blues guitarist. He didn't put it down for 45 minutes and he gave me lots of accolades. He currently plays a Traugott. I'm really glad I did because it gave me a lot of confidence and confirmed that I was on the right track with my voicing (I keep lots of notes and records of my builds). Jorma Kaukonen also played the same guitar and gave me a great big grin. If anyone is serious about this business this is what you have to do. As Rick says, get professional feedback.

My thirteen year old daughter is bugging me to build her a classical guitar (I already built her a parlor) and I must admit I'm starting to get the bug to do it myself, so it's on the list.
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Michael, don't worry, I promise to be fair and impartial with my assessment, and will find positive ways to express any negative concerns. This is a tremendous opportunity for both of us, not just you! I'm looking forward to breaking it in and putting it through it's paces. I'm already planning on recording Pujol's Landscapes exercise for your web site. The Boston Symphony has afforded me another opportunity to play in March, and I plan on using it for this concert. I have faith that it will sound excellent!




Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Uh, Michael, thanks for the PM clarifying that. I thought you meant me... oh well. Guess I'll have to use the Ramirez at the concert.



Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Michael -

I had to do the same thing with my very first classical guitar, because I just really don't know much about them yet. I took it to the guitar prof here at U.D., who was very gracious and spent a good hour with it. Although I had a great deal less at stake, being the newb that I am, I still felt like I was walking into my qualifying exams all over again.

I received both positive comments (good string to string balance, easy to play), and negative (muffled - overbuilt? not opened up yet? and a complaint that the body is too big (Rodriguez) ). To me, the most encouraging sign was that he wished that he had brought his real guitar in (a Humphrey) - the work guitar in the office was never referred to for comparison.

I came away from the experience both mindful of the complaints and buoyed by the positive aspects, and it has
made me eager to progress further.

Jim

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:06 am ]
Post subject: 
As far as I know your not a professor at a university in the Southwest are you?
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