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bob J
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:12 am 
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Sorry, I did not want to 'hi-jack' and have a slightly different take.
I have never visited a factory so my comments are based on intuition and comments from others.
1. Workmanship, as a whole is probably somewhat better with factory made. (Assuming Martin, etc.) The essence of factory work is speed with close tolerances. Plus, the factory's have many experienced people who do wonderful finishes, binding etc.

The difference in quality comes from the downside of the above methods.
The factories look for large orders of woods that ate as consistent as possible. Most important in tops and bracing. The tops they use, for each model (s) is based on experiences with the same wood, stiffness and thinness. Same with braces-consistent bracing material cut to same dimensions.
This, in in effect means to me that out of a run of 200 d-28s, most will be right in the middle re tone and be a nice guitar for someone. Some will not be that great because the top combo didn't work as well- that top not a stiff, runnout, etc. A few will be great because the law of averages dictates that a few of the guitars will have the right top, thickness, bracing perfect for that top. These are the beauties we hear about, except I bet more than a few of these older babies also owe their superior tone to the aging process of the tops. With luthiers use of addi now being braced lighter, the tops thinner and baking the tops before assembly, I believe we hear many great guitars-a much larger % than the 200 run.


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Mike Mahar
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:52 am 
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I've been wondering about this for some time and have come up with the following thought experiment.

Suppose you had a guitar factory that made 100 guitars a day. You have 12 models of guitars: Parlor, OM, Dread, and Jumbo. For each body shape you have Rosewood, Mahagony, and laminate. There are 12 bins to hold the top woods selected for each model.

Every morning the shop foreman goes through the stacks of top wood and flexes and taps each top set. The set he thinks would work well with a rosewood dread he puts into the rosewood dread bin. The same with the other body shapes and backwoods. The "lesser" woods go into the laminate bins. Records are kept on each top set that describes, in terms that the only the shop foreman needs to understand, the characteristics of the set.

The instruments are then all built according to the specs in the plans. When the guitars come out the back end of the process, the foreman evaluates the finished guitars for tone. He uses his subjective impression of the tone of each guitar and adjusts his sorting criteria for the sorting of the top sets the next day.

I'm wondering how long would it take for the instruments in this mythical factory to develop a very consistent sound. Would the sound ever become consistent? Assume that for the sake of discussion that the foreman isn't tone deaf and has reasonable sense as to what a "good" guitar sounds like.

I can imagine other refinements like having three bracing templates and when the top goes to be braced the worker places the top on a deflection gauge and selects a wide, middle or narrow template pattern depending on the amount of deflection.

With enough practice, people are very good at making value judgments.


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DP LaPlante
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Martin is often held up (and rightfully so) as being exemplary for fine workmanship at the factory level. However, before we as individual craftpersons get too depressed by this it's important to remember that they are not perfect either.


I know for a fact that Martin has commonly in the past used filler (sanding dust, glue) to fix less than perfect body to heel junctures, corn starch and linseed oil to fill rosette/spruce gaps, extra purfling strips when the rabbeting has gone wrong as well as lots of lacquer drop in as well as other ad hoc finish fixes to get product that is up to standards, out. In addition some Martins have 3-piece tops which  enabled them to use wood that exhibited a flaw which could be eliminated by cutting and rejoining one of the halves.  


I suppose it's not the total absence of problems which is the important factor here, but the ability to recover from problems and present an aesthetically pleasing, clean and properly functional product, and in our case, one that has a strong individual character.


  
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Parser
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From what I have been told, Collings keeps records on stiffness and density. This makes a ton of sense to me as an engineer...because by maintaining a specific stiffness at a specific weight you are effectively controlling the resonant frequency of the soundboard.

While being able to fix problems is obviously a great benefit...I think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I think the real lesson from guitar factories is that with the right jigs and with repeatable parts (a la CNC), it is possible to build and finish an acoustic guitar in under 20 hours...and the larger shops have enough specialized people that they can do it in roughly half of this time! If you could build a good guitar in 20 hours...what does this do for you from a marketing perspective?

How much time do you spend "fitting" parts that could ideally "fit" right from the start?


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DP LaPlante
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"With the right jigs and with repeatable parts (a la CNC), it is possible to build and finish an acoustic guitar in under 20 hours"


Yes, then you have created a factory with yourself as the only employee...............is this why folks got into this work to begin with???


 
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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:28 am 
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Ask Jim Olson.
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Parser
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Rick - I'm not familiar with how Mr. Olson works....is this basically what he has done?

DP - I don't think people get into it to "become a factory". But I do think that the people who are most interested in building are willing to turn it into a business..if for no other reason than they will get to do it everyday. Designing and creating your own guitars is a far cry from "working for the man"..!

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DP LaPlante
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Certainly Rick's example of Jim Olson is a good one as he has taken this approach and quite successfully.


At an ASIA convention years ago Jim talked about how he was completely jigged up for every operation and had (after scouring garage sales) around 60 routers in his shop, each set up and dedicated to just one jig and operation. Some of the members in attendance were inspired by this, others were horrified. 


When I attended the Romanillos course in Siguenza this past August, it was quite apparent that he has always pretty much worked with hand tools. He certainly acknowledged the efficiency of the router but said he had never owned one and requested that those who wanted to use theirs please do so in the parking lot as he hated the noise. I do have to give him all the respect in the world considering his skills.Most especially seeing how he creates and assembles his complex and lovely inlays with strips of veneer created with a hand plane...........


I guess it is up to each individual to decide just where he fits between these two very different approaches.  


 
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Parser
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well well well...look what I found!

Acoustic Guitar Central by Rick Turner...

So Jim is making 60 guitars a year at 60 hours per week. That means he needs 50 hours per guitar...which ain't too shabby! Judging from the folks who play his instruments I'm guessing they aren't too shabby...They sure look great!



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FishtownMike
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I have visited martins factory when I was a kid. When you here factory you start to think heavy machinery and automated equipment robots building guitars. Its not like that. There is a lot hand work going on in this place. So these guitars are just as hand made as anything coming out of OLF members shops. maybe even more. I know some of you have the top of the line power tools and bench tools and some even CNC machinery. So in a sense you have your own factory with just less output.

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DP LaPlante
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Mike, how many years ago was that??????
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FishtownMike
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25 DP LaPlante.

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DP LaPlante
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Well, it has changed a WHOLE lot.....still handwork being done to be sure, but if you saw their Robot buffer (it kinda looks a like the villain robot in the Disney movie "The Black Hole"....)  you might have a different impression.....!!


Best!
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Parser
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:19 am 
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..you mean the one that does 90 to 95% of the buffing work in minutes...? What a great tool....nothing wrong with using the best tool for the job

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FishtownMike
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:25 am 
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Yeah i guess things change with time. I would like to visit there again though. I keep thinking that but just never have the time to do so.

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Michael Dale Payne
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This went off an a bit different tangent than I expected. More on how fast than how tolerances are controlled.

All assembly line manufacturing forces its self to use what is know in the industry as acceptable manufacturing tolerance. this required to work with the large numbers they do. This does not mean they just picked a value out of the sky and said go with this. Instead they did their research and development to come up with their tolerancing system. They choose the guidelines that will work with in a given range on a consistent basis. There are a lot of variables that are part of this type of tolerance system. and I can insure you the big names spend lots of money each quarter to keep track, maintain and adjust to the variables of the components used in their product.

However they can not look at a single guitar as representation example of their design, but rather in batches. And one has to keep in mind that they as well as us independent luthiers work with a material that the given characteristics are subject to change from piece to piece as well as day to day. If you are working with one, two or five guitars in a batch it is easy to keep on top of material properties and dimensional tolerance. However working with 100 or more guitars in a batch make for a wholly different situation. It is amazing that The big three put out as consistent as product as they do, in the numbers they do, with the staff they do so with.

That is our one big advantage We are privileged to be able to take the time. However we pay for that privilege with many times higher unit cost.

I personally do not care too much for the guitars the big two put out off the production line. But I have been fortunate enough to have played several instruments that came from their custom shops that were built for artists they have under sponsorship contract. The big three have some very talented luthiers working in their custom shops as well as supervisors on the production floor and may of this countries great luthiers paid their dues in those factories before going out on there own.

We can justifiably mock the quality of a certain percentage of the instruments the big three put out, but we really should look and ask our self if we could produce a better overall quality instrument if we had to push out the same numbers.
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Hesh
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[QUOTE=bob J] I believe we hear many great guitars-a much larger % than the 200 run. [/QUOTE]

Bob buddy sorry for taking this statement out of context but I believe it to be your point.

I think that I have left some with the impression that I am a factory basher.  Far from it and I have the highest regard for Martin, Taylor and others including some of the import factories that can provide a very good starter guitar for very little money.

It must have been an enormous task for Martin and some others who are now industry leaders to make the jump to light speed so-to-speak and shift production from a more human hands on approach to a more automated approach and still retain the excellent tone. 

A parallel might be high end speakers.  A boutique speaker designer comes up with a great design/speaker, early buyers are thrilled, reviewers are impressed, and soon everyone wants a set.  The speaker designer now becomes a speaker manufacturer and has to produce hundreds or thousands of sets/units and still retain the performance that brought them fame. 

In countless examples, AR and the 3A, Ohm and C2, Bose 911s, Infinity, etc. that jump to light speed left some important things behind and these products in time became yesterday's news and today's dorm room bong holder......

But with Martin and Taylor this did not happen.  Instead some of their finest products in years are produced today.  With Martin it may be the Authentic series as Rick indicated that he loved the Authentic D-18 and the R-Taylors that I have played have been superb instruments.

I agree with you Bob that a higher percentage of Luthier built guitars will provide a higher level of owner satisfaction then the factory guitars.  But, OTH, can we produce, consistently, a D-28 that sells on the street for $1,900 and took 12 hours to build that performs as well as a Martin?  IMHO the answer is no.  Nor would we ever want to of course because that is Martin's turf and they own it.

As builders and Luthiers we have one shot at producing great customer satisfaction - every single time.  We also have the luxury of spending far more time with the individual tasks,  adding our own engineering, designs, vision, and our own individual levels of anal retentiveness.

So yes the Luthier built guitar will likely more often then not provide a higher level of customer satisfaction but then again it has to or we all just have been put out of business.  But quality factory guitars own the market, promote the market, and provide a consistent enough high level of satisfaction that they remain the dream guitars for the vast majority of people.  And, even the imports that sell for $199 are far superior to the Harmony/Silvertone from Sears that I started playing when I was 9 years old.
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DP LaPlante
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"We can justifiably mock the quality of a certain percentage of the instruments the big three put out"


No mocking here Michael, just a look at some of the techniques that factories use to fix problems as well as a realistic look at the issue of hand craftsmanship (or not).


I have great respect as well as affecton for places like the Martin company and I think in many ways they respect folks like us too.  
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Hesh
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[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

I have great respect as well as affecton for places like the Martin company and I think in many ways they respect folks like us too.  

[/QUOTE]

I agree, well said.

I live about 35 miles west of Detroit - Automotive land here.......  Without wishing to offend anyone the States does not have the best of reputations in mass producing things that are labor intensive.  In fact we are no longer the industrial center that we once were.

Companies like Martin, Taylor, Gibson, and others who produce guitars or at least their mid and higher end models here are mass producing some of the finest guitars on the planet and they are doing so in the states.  This is unusual today and highly notable as well.

In a way companies like Martin and the products that they produce are national treasures.
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Parser
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I guess in the end Luthier Vs. Factory comes down to the same thing as photography vs. reproductions of paintings vs. original artwork. Luthier made instruments are original artwork all the way from inspiration thru completion. Maybe those cheap-o chinese guitars are like the $10 Ansel Adams prints....they are a decent facsimile of some wonderful work...but they are actually devalued by the shear quantity on the market. Luthier made instruments at the high end are like a master's painting...but even on the "low" end - aka the budding builders - I think there is a lot of respect for any one individual who can take a pile of wood and build an instrument from it.


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KenH
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The above statement says volumes.


While I pride myself in the sound I am able to achieve with my instruments, I have an ulterior motive for building them. I have become painfully aware at how very short life is. Because of that, I want to make something that will outlive me by generations and something that I will be known for in the future. I doubt that I will gain the fame that someone like romanillios has, but for those that are fortunate enough to play one of my instruments in the future, I want to be remembered in a good light.


With each instrument I make, I pour my blood, sweat, and sometimes tears into it. These are pieces of myself that I feel joy in sharing with others.


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Howard Klepper
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I just finished gluing in an end graft of buckeye burl and some of my homemade half-herringbone purfling. I sawed the slab of burl to get the best pattern. I had the graft fit tight. Then I spent another half hour adjusting the fit so that the maximum amount and best pattern of burleyes would be left in the graft after routing for the bindings. It's the kind of thing I like to do; not special or unique to this guitar. I do it for my own satisfaction. As I was finishing up, it occurred to me that a factory is never going to do that--spend another half hour to get a couple more burl eyes falling inside the finished pattern.

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Parser
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They'll do it...but with a custom factory guitar you are paying for the name brand as well as the customization. That level of attention gets you a $6,000 guitar from a factory...

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Rick Turner
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Just don't forget that a $6,000.00 guitar from a factory is actually a $3,000.00 guitar...and maybe less...
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Kevin Gallagher
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:36 pm 
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    They're not going to spend any extra time to place a particular
segment of wood in the viewable section of a component at a factory.
Sory, but they just do not have the time and they kow that they're going
to get that $6k without spending the time. Every extra minute that is
spent on a guitar by a worker cuts int the profit margin and it isn't
tolerated for long in the high pressure, quota driven environment of the
large shops. Believe me, they appear to be much more relaxed and casual
places than they actually are when you're in the trenches of working
there.

    When we can get our guitars built in under five hours, then we'll be
getting close to what Martin is doing. You'd be amazed at how fast
someone who has made or installed 50,000 of a part can make or install
that part. Jigs an fixtures are designed and made for two
purposes....accuracy and speed in production and all of the major houses
have a large department for just that.

    I designed and made alot of fixtures at Martin that I've never even used
in my own shop or on my own guitars. There's a certain charm to
finishing each component from a rogh state for each guitar that you're
building. That's why I'll rough things out in quantity, but keep them in
that state and on hand to be able to pull them out and customize them
for a guitar.

    
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