[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] [QUOTE=Alan Carruth] We seem to be able to hear much more than we can measure. [/QUOTE]
Not only that; we seem to be able to hear much more than we can hear.[/QUOTE]
I hear that!
Or do I ?
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| Back braces and overall tone http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14716 |
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| Author: | Lab1 [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:48 pm ] |
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If the back braces on a guitar are made a little heavier will the sound of the guitar be noticeably changed? |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:38 pm ] |
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Yes No Maybe . |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:42 pm ] |
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(c) above |
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| Author: | Lab1 [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:33 am ] |
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Thats what I thought also...However, referring to my post "Removing guitar back".....The back was replaced and braced a little different...The lower bout braces are now 3/4" wide and 3/8" high instead of 3/8" wide and 3/4" high...The upper braces are the same as before ...3/8 wide and 5/8" high.....The sound has changed from a nice drum sound to a thud when the top is tapped with my finger....Maybe the finished guitar will have a good sound but I somehow don't think so....( the bindings have not been installed yet)....Larry |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:50 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Lab1]The sound has changed from a nice drum sound to a thud when the top is tapped with my finger....Maybe the finished guitar will have a good sound but I somehow don't think so....( the bindings have not been installed yet)....Larry [/QUOTE] Larry, if you build it right, it will sound good. Your comment makes me wonder why you think it won't sound good. How do other good guitars sound when you do the same thing to them? Yank the strings off and tap on those good guitars for comparison. Back Braces on this thread, just go by the plan unless you are doing some weird prototype. It'll sound great and hold for the test of time. Some swear the glue really matters. Titebond vs Hot Hide glue. I think what matters most is building a bunch of guitars. Grab an accepted plan and build. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:33 am ] |
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What Grumpy said. Don't make any judgements until you get the bindings back on: all of my guitars have a more or less dead 'thump' without the bidings, because of the air leakage around the edges. Most of the sound is in the top; the main contributions of the back seem to be in the low and high ranges. The low range contribution depends on lot on how the back is 'tuned' relative to the top. It's easy enough to find out what the relationship is; far harder is to decide what you want it to be for 'your' sound. The high range contribution of the back is even harder to control in a way: a lot of it depends on things like the wood and thickness of the back itself, rather than the bracing. Of course, the devil is in the details. The actual measureable differences between 'good' and 'great' guitars are really tiny. We seem to be able to hear much more than we can measure. Those small differences sure can be important, though. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:51 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] We seem to be able to hear much more than we can measure. [/QUOTE] Not only that; we seem to be able to hear much more than we can hear. |
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| Author: | Lab1 [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:52 am ] |
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Thanks Alan....I was kind of hoping that someone would make that comment on the bindings.....I'll know for sure in a couple of weeks when the strings go on.....Can't wait....Thanks guys, Larry |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:58 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] [QUOTE=Alan Carruth] We seem to be able to hear much more than we can measure. [/QUOTE] Not only that; we seem to be able to hear much more than we can hear.[/QUOTE] I hear that! Or do I ?
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| Author: | James W B [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:03 am ] |
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If you ask me the braces are way too heavy.My back braces are 1/4 wide by 1/2 inch high.As far as the nice drum sound goes,that`s what I`m wanting to hear. James |
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| Author: | BlackHeart [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:05 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Lab1]Thats what I thought also...However, referring to my post "Removing guitar back".....The back was replaced and braced a little different...The lower bout braces are now 3/4" wide and 3/8" high instead of 3/8" wide and 3/4" high...The upper braces are the same as before ...3/8 wide and 5/8" high.....The sound has changed from a nice drum sound to a thud when the top is tapped with my finger....Maybe the finished guitar will have a good sound but I somehow don't think so....( the bindings have not been installed yet)....Larry [/QUOTE] Lab, is this Cumlianos style your trying out here? Just wondering. Im going with tall, those seemed too heavy for some reason, but maybe you want more damping on the back, who knows, I dont.  |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:14 am ] |
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[QUOTE=BlackHeart] Lab, is this Cumlianos style your trying out here? Just wondering. Im going with tall, those seemed too heavy for some reason, but maybe you want more damping on the back, who knows, I dont. [/QUOTE]
Thats an entire new area of discussion, Blackheart. Will a heavier bracing actually stiffen up the back and make it more prone to bounce soundwaves off of it? Will it actually absorb some of the energy because it is heavier? Will lighter bracing be more active and act more as a top, creating a sound of its own or will a light top actually suck some of the energy out of the sound? Is it all moot when the player rests the back of the guitar on his or her body, thereby damping the whole thing no matter how its braced????? I always find it hard to wrap my brain around these questions. I've built several different ways, but I'm not sure I can accurately answer any of those questions. -j. |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:16 am ] |
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On second thought, maybe I should have let Mario's first post stand on its own merit. Yes No Maybe ------------- How true. -j. |
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| Author: | Lab1 [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:52 pm ] |
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James...I consider myself a novice when it comes to building instruments..In the past year I've built 12 instruments, Guitars, Mandolins, and Irish Bouzoukis...I have learned something from every instrument....When this guitar is finished I will know if heavier back bracing makes a difference or not..I will know this because I have built two identical guitars one with a standard back bracing and one with a little heavier back bracing....( it wasn't meant to be that way but thats how its going to turn out)....1/4" X 1/2" sounds kind of light to me especially if you bring them to a tapered peak...( just my opinion, which is probally garbage ........) Seems like a lot of people in here are undecided as to whether heavier back bracing actually makes a difference..... or not.Blackheart....Just trying to find something that works for me....  Larry |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:26 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Lab1] ....When this guitar is finished I will know if heavier back bracing makes a difference or not..I will know this because I have built two identical guitars one with a standard back bracing and one with a little heavier back bracing......[/QUOTE] The bracing weighs the same, it is just rotated 90 degrees. If you mean heavier is stiffer, you just reduced the stiffness. I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by heavier. What I think you have is a more flexible back. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:45 am ] |
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Steve, you really need to go read this thread on the "cube rule". It will give you a much better clue of bracing heights vs widths and stiffness vs weight. It is very informative. Also, do a search in the Forum Archive on "cube rule" in the <message body>, and read some of the other threads. You will learn a ton about all of this. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:17 am ] |
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[QUOTE=grumpy] YesNoMaybe. [/QUOTE] All the abouve
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