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Heels and Joints
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14708		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  j.Brown [ Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:31 pm ]
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Is there a preference on stacked heels and scarf joints go as far as builders AND customers?
Will a one piece (not including a vertical lamination) be weaker/stronger than a stacked heel and a scarf joint? It seems like using the right glue would at least be as strong as a one piece.
Do stacked heels indicate to a customer any particular sentiment in terms of quality or aesthetic preference?
Its seems like mahogany blocks suited for solid neckss are getting more difficult to come by, so I was wondering about saving the wood and going back to stacked heels or scarf joints. Hmmmm.....its late and I'm starting to ramble and repeat myself repeat myself.
-j.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:40 pm ]
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For acoustics, I like a laminated neck without a stacked heel and then a scarfed on peghead.   Stacked heels and scarfed pegheads have a long history in Spanish classical guitars, even on very expensive instruments, so there's no down-grade for building that way.   I just prefer the line of the center lamination going down into the heel.

On my electric Model 1, however, I scarf and stack, and nobody complains...and that's a $5,000.00 guitar.
Author:  SniderMike [ Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:11 pm ]
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I like the lamination to go down into the heel too.

It also seems to me that a scarfed peghead could be stronger than one
cut from a single piece of lumber, if you think about the way the grain
runs in each situation.
Author:  Dave White [ Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:24 pm ]
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You can scarfe, stack the heel and have centre laminations that have a line down to the heel. Do the neck scarfe/stack as is and then cut it down the middle, prepare the joint and add in your centre laminations.
Author:  joelThompson [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:19 am ]
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A scarfe jointed Neck is in some ways stronger and preferable to a one
peice.
For a start a one peice neck has an inherent week point at the area where
the headstock meets the fingerboard.
This is becouse of the runout created as you carve the headstock angle.
It also why gibson etc necks often snap at that point.
When you scarfe joint you avoid this problem and make for a stronger
neck at that point due to grain orientation.
The other more obviouse one is that its less wastefull.
I dont think a stacked heel has any adavantages apart from the the fact it
also saves on wood.
when you buy a neck blank in this country (u.k.) you get a peice of wood
36" x 3 x 1 with the idea being you can cut your neck and heel blocks
from one matching peice of wood.

It works for me and with good construction most players dont even notice
the diference.
if someone does grumble i point out the strength issue and it usualy
converts them to scarfe necks.

Dave i like your method i will have to try that.

Joel.
Author:  Bill Bergman [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:39 am ]
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Sometimes when I slip match the stacked heel, I cannot even find the glue joints or change in grain if I look for them. It makes a big difference to slip match adjacent pieces rather than not pay attention and take pieces out of order or flip some of the layers, which show more.
Author:  DP LaPlante [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 

Considering that I'm making Classicals, I prefer the "V" joint to the scarf, though I've done both as well as one piece necks. I'm fine with stacking the heel though the fewer laminations the better (one is what I'm shooting for now with some 2" neck stock) and as with Bill   stacking in sequence for a good grain and color match.


 
Author:  DP LaPlante [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:56 am ]
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I must admit that I really like the way these joints look.Anyone using it for steel?
Author:  Bill Bergman [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:43 pm ]
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By the way, I have seen some very expensive classicals where the single block stacked heel (about three inches) is a completely different color than the neck and head stock. For example, the neck and head was very light honey colored, perhaps spanish cedar, and the heel was dark reddish mahogany.
Author:  DP LaPlante [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bill, are you thinking of the '37 Hauser?
Author:  j.Brown [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:52 pm ]
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I do notice that when I use the large single block vs. the slip match, the colors can be drastically different. That I don't like so much. An amber colored shellac for an FP'd neck seems to make some of that color variation go away, though.
DP, thats a very interesting V scarf. How is this done?
-j.
Author:  DP LaPlante [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

The male and female portions are marked out with patterns along with a sliding bevel guage to mark the angle. Cuts are made with a back saw and final fitting is done with a chisel. I use a long bar clamp to glue the head and neck shaft together.


There is an excellent article on Geza Burghardt's method of doing these in the number 63 issue of the 2000 GAL quarterly.  
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:33 pm ]
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I'm pretty sure there is a "V" Joint tutorial on the Tutorial Page that explains it well. 
Author:  Bill Bergman [ Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was not referring to the Hauser, which I have not seen--just to guitars that I have seen in stores. Now, if you would like to loan me the Hauser........
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:42 am ]
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HERE is the V Joint Tutorial by Joshua, posted on the OLF Tutorial Page.
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