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| Gluing fretboads with epoxy - a question. http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14665 |
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| Author: | BobK [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:31 am ] |
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For those that glue their fretboards with epoxy, what kind of clamping pressure do you use - say compared to Tightbond? I should be able to try this tomorrow, so any other tips would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob |
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| Author: | Bill Bergman [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:50 am ] |
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Let me add my question. It seems to me that the squeeze out on the top could not be cleaned properly. How do you avoid that, or clean it up? |
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| Author: | BobK [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:56 am ] |
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Good question Bill. My guess would be masking tape and clean up with DA before it hardens. I'm using a modified double mortise and tenon neck joint (all bolts), so nothing is glued to the body. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:59 am ] |
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Epoxy doesn't require any pressure. You just need to hold it in position. You could use the same force you use with Titebond, it won't hurt anything, it just isn't needed. I clamp it enough to hold it in place and see a little squeeze out. BTW- If you want an alternative to epoxy, try fish glue. I have found that the water effect isn't anything like Titebond, it acts more like epoxy. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:02 pm ] |
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Bob- I've glued a lot of stuff with epoxy- not fingerboards yet- and the general advice from the epoxy formulators (WEST, System 3) is to avoid high clamping pressure. I use just enough pressure to get the excess out of there; I don't clamp as hard with epoxy as with Titebond-type glues. A fingerboard attachment isn't a very severe test of adhesion, so it probably doesn't matter much, but 'straight' epoxies without thickeners are not very good adhesives. WEST Epoxy User Manual should answer most of your questions. The ideas there apply to most epoxies (not the stuff in 2 tubes from the hardware store, though), not just WEST products. Wear gloves! Cheers John |
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| Author: | Dave Rickard [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:03 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=BobK]. I'm using a modified double mortise and tenon neck joint (all bolts), so nothing is glued to the body.[/QUOTE] I’m curios, would you post a picture of your neck joint. |
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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:10 pm ] |
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To much clamping presure with epoxy and the joint can fail. I learned this years ago. On some failed wood working projects. Then I learned enough to read the manufactuers instructions.You just need enough pressure to hold it in place. |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:18 pm ] |
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I use wooden cam clamps. They provide plenty of pressure for this type of joint. Clean up with DA or mineral spirits. Try golf club shafting epoxy. It works great, is easily disassembled and much cheaper than West, T-88 or TAP. |
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| Author: | BobK [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:22 pm ] |
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Thanks for the info guys. Dave, the neck joint is based on the version that John Mayes uses. The only difference is that I mortise the second tenon into both the body and the neck blank for added strength. It also prevents the 14th fret hump. I think Paul Woolson does something similar. Here are some pics of the one I'm working on now. 
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| Author: | Dave Rickard [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:57 pm ] |
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Thanks Bob, Very nice |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:39 am ] |
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I clamp the hell out of mine.... 7 large clamps. But then, I'm not using that wimpy WEST stuff, either <g> If you tooth both surfaces, you can't overclamp. And why concern with squeeze out on the top? The guitar's top? We're not using epoxy -there-! Otherwise, masking tape on the fretboard, right to the edge, and clamp it all, fretboard down. Cleanup involves simply cutting away the tape.... |
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| Author: | Bill Bergman [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:57 am ] |
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OK, I have never used epoxy on the fingerboard, so I am not familiar with the procedure. Do you use epoxy over the neck and regular glue over the body? |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:14 am ] |
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Yes. |
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| Author: | dmills [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:20 am ] |
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Glued a fingerboard with epoxy for the first time this last week with good results using Smith & Co. epoxy from LMI. Slightly dished the back of the fingerboard (a few thou) to give good contact at the edges. Wet both the fingerboard and the neck surfaces with the epoxy and let stand 30 minutes. Mixed in some wood flour into the remaining epoxy and applied to the neck surfaces. Clamped with 3 medium spring clamps and a cam clamp at the heel. I didn’t use positioning pins/staples so the fingerboard drifted a bit initially. Repositioned after 25 minutes (most of the squeeze out had occurred by then). Cleaned up the excess epoxy at the edges with denatured alcohol after about an hour. Nice tight solid joint. |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:42 am ] |
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Ow My eyes! My eyes!.... |
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| Author: | dmills [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:34 am ] |
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Sorry Mario, I did a cut and paste from Word. What is the system font anyway? [QUOTE=grumpy]Ow My eyes! My eyes!.... |
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| Author: | erikbojerik [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:50 am ] |
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Why use epoxy at all? Lack of creep over time? I just imagine trying to get an epoxied fretboard off in the event of a buggered truss rod...but maybe this isn't as much of an issue with acoustics as it seems to be with electrics. |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:23 pm ] |
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Removing an epoxied fingerboard is no big deal. Heat it up with a hot iron; parting knife it off. It's no more difficult than taking off a fingerboard done with any other glue. Actually, polyurethane is difficult, come to think of it. And do you really like using water based glue for the fingerboard joint? Or are you using polyurethane? Going to epoxy has saved me a whole lot of neck problems. |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:24 pm ] |
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All other adhesives contain some moisture, which often induces some backbow to the neck. Epoxy doesn't at all, so if yo clamp it flat, it will be flat. reversing epoxy is a cinch, also. Many epoxies release at temperatures slightly lower than Titebond releases at. I've been bit by junk rods early in my career, and can attest to how well epoxy reverses itself. Never a sliver of wood.... I just use hardware store epoxy for this use, BTW. Plenty strong enough for this large surface, fast, yet releases readily. Costs little, also. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:03 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=grumpy] All other adhesives contain some moisture, which often induces some backbow to the neck.........[/QUOTE] I've heard that many times, but I have never experienced it. I believe it happens, but I am wondering how bad it is and how hard it is to fix? It seems to me that it wouldn't be that bad, but I've been wrong before....... |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:22 pm ] |
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There's no moisture in polyurethane glue unless you introduce it yourself to kick it faster. SteveS...pay attention to what the grumpy man says. Switching from water based adhesives to epoxy for fingerboard joints has cut any neck issues by a good 60% for me. The worst is gluing a fingerboard on with Titebond before you carve it. Fuggedaboudit... Bad way to make necks. I should know as I did about 1,250 Alembic necks that way... |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:40 pm ] |
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Yes, I like to listen to the voice of experience. OK - no more Titebond on fretboards. I'll consider myself lucky up to now. What about using HHG or fish-glue? I know they are water based, but they don't seem to cause the same trouble that Titebond does. Perhaps th ere is less moisture. |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:10 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner] The worst is gluing a fingerboard on with Titebond before you carve it. Fuggedaboudit... Bad way to make necks. I should know as I did about 1,250 Alembic necks that way...[/QUOTE] Rick would you elaborate on this just a bit? Thanks. |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:58 pm ] |
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El Warpo... You introduce water into the neck and fingerboard...first bad thing; then you carve away more than 1/3 of the mass of wood on the back of the neck thereby stress relieving that part of the neck. So you've introduced stress on one side and relieved it on the other. Bad way to do things. I don't care that classical builders do this all the time...they also spend a lot of time planing and sanding their fingerboards prior to fretting. The most stable necks are carved close to finished dimensions and then are allowed to settle. Then you've got a shot at truing up the fingerboard gluing surface and epoxying on a fingerboard without one part of the neck fighting another. I've machine carved about 2,600 necks now on shapers and pin routers. The most stable of these are the ones I shaped before gluing on the fingerboards...by far... In fact, my most stable necks have been either ones loaded with carbon fiber or with very thin ( .075") fingerboards...the necks we put on the Renaissance series. The fingerboard is bent to the radius machined into the gluing surface, and we cut all the way through the fingerboard with the fret slots. These necks are astoundingly stable, even the ones without CF reinforcement. The fingerboard is simply not fighting the neck. |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:57 pm ] |
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Mario, Are you talking about just a standard 5/10 minute 2-part epoxy that one would pick up at any hardware store and some grocery stores? -j. |
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