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Shop Heat
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14659		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:46 am ]
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So what are you guys using for heat? Living in North Texas, my heating needs aren't extreme. Shop is 16X24 on pier and beam, in need of insulation right now, but that won't happen for a while.

Right now I've got one portable oil-filled radiator that ain't quite cutting it. I have a window unit for cooling. My wife wants to get one of the portable heat/ccol units, any experiences with those? What about a window heat/cool?
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:57 am ]
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Your best investment would be insulation.   Go get a bank loan to do it; the payoff will be amazingly quick. I'll bet you'd pay less a month on the payments than you'll pay in energy costs to heat the place. It's almost a no-brainer.   Can you throw a sunroom on the south side? You'll get a lot of solar gain. Put in a solar wood drying kiln while you're at it.
Author:  burbank [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:00 am ]
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Wes,

I'd get insulation up before making a decision on temp control. You're likely to overbuy to overcome the lack of insulation.

Here in eastern Washington, I have a 12 x 20 shop, wood frame. Last year, with the outside in the 20s, I had to struggle to get it up to 50 inside. This year, I put up R-13 batts in the ceiling. Today it's 24 out and a toasty 67 inside, with a space heater, electric oil-filled, each about 1000 watts, with a propane heater buddy that I just use to get it warmed up when I first go out there. I have a $400 Sears AC unit for the summers, commonly up to 100 deg, very dry.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:11 am ]
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My shop has R-38 walls and over R-60 in the attic <bg> Even the floor is R-6.2

Heated with a direct vent(zero exposed flame), wall-mounted natural gas furnace. No air conditioning required....
Author:  davidO [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:29 am ]
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I rent a 13'X18' garage in Vancouver BC. It does drop below freezing during the winter some but generally hovers above around 3-8 degrees C in the winter.

I think insulation is a first step must. It will control the temperature swings and give you a much more control over your enviroment.

I only use an oil filled rad as well and it maintains a reasonably comfortable tempurature. I also have a Kerosine heater for those chilly days.

I would also put up polyetholine vapour barrier, it will help you control humidity.

DavidO
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:29 am ]
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Yeah, Mario, wait 'til that good old global warming catches up with you! You'll have a regular Canadian Riviera there...time to buy beachfront property on Hudson Bay...
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:44 am ]
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WesTex,
I have the same size shop as you. It's insulated fully with 2/4 walls, visquene .006 sheeting walls and ceiling. My buddy is in HVAC and installed a one ton heat pump. We never noticed it on our bill. It's very effecient.

One thing I did was make my plenum in his shop. Installed in a corner with an L shaped metal insulated plenum. I put a grill on the end and side of the L giving two directions for heat and cool to exit.

And like most residential installs, I put a filter grill in to catch the dust generated and check it often. It's nice to go in night or day and have it sitting on 70 degrees F with the digital thermostat.

Too, I have a portable humidifier, and dehumidifier, both floor models. I couldn't be happier with my shop temp, RH, or heat/cool bill. Rick may be right, do some trading, or some overtime and get that AC Heat going for you. You'll be glad.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:06 am ]
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Insulate, insulate, insulate!  And weatherstrip the doors, too.  Cooler in summer, warmer in winter.

I've got an overhead radiant heater, natural gas.  Same idea as Mario's, but different location.  Not exposed flame, no moving air.
Author:  Mark Maquillan [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:24 am ]
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I don't live to far from Pat and right now its wood heat and a backup with fuel oil. We have plenty of apple wood since apples are the major economic export here. Next year its going to be geothermal though. The earth makes for a great heat source and the big rivers (Snake and Columbia) make lots of affordable electricity. Thats what my shop is heated by.


Mark
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Guess I knew what answers to expect already. And I know they're dead on. I know the best thing I can do is invest some time and money to get my shop well sealed and insulated. It's kinda hard for me not to be able to go that route right now (I'm one who preaches hard about taking the time to plan a job out, layout a logical order of progression, don't get the cart before the horse, blah, blah, blah...drives my wife nuts).

Problem is, I just can't just yet. Too many other irons in the fire, major remodeling tasks taking up my time and money.

Mostly just looking for recommendations for a good heater to get me by. Also, my wife wants to get me that portable heat/cool unit and was wondering if anybody had experience with those.

Thanks for the responses, though! Promise I'll get this thing sealed and better insulated just as soon as possible!
Author:  Rod True [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:01 pm ]
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I think I'm the only one I've heard of who installed electric baseboard heaters. I've got two in my shop. One is 4',1000W unit and the other is 3',750W. These are convection heat sources with no open flame, when I'm in the shop, I have the air filter on which moves the air in my shop enough to get the heaters to do their job right. With good insulation, these are very efficient for my small 185 sft shop.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:27 pm ]
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I heat with wood using a vintage Kalamazoo "Super Power" wood and coal furnace. I fire it up in the AM and it holds heat for 12-14 hours. Naturally I have lots of insulation which helps a bit ;) I have threatened to feed it some guitars every now and then but I have never carried through ... yet
Author:  wyodave [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:03 pm ]
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Wes,
I'm going through the same thing w/my new 12x20 shed/shop. It was about 6 degrees last night and I ain't doing it anymore. I priced insulation for my shop today and for $250 it's a no brainer. My walls and ceiling are 2x4. I'll start insulating next week. It won't take long to recoup the cost of my propane. Man I'm still using a long extention cord from the house to the shop till I get it wired! Anyway, this might help you, it did me. Put up in the ceiling area some of those plasic tarps so the heat won't go up and stay there(there's a lot of heat in the ceiling). I put the tarps about 8'high and tied to my roof trusses Then, mounted a slow moving fan up high(below tarps of course) to bring that heat down to the floor. It works. No sauna, but warm. But like everyone said-INSULATION!!
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:52 pm ]
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Mario, how are you insulating your floor? Our den is the old garage and all the original owner's did was throw two layers of padding under the carpeting. It always feels like walking on carpeted ice.
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:20 pm ]
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The shop is on a concrete slab. I placed 1x3 strapping on 16" centers, and nailed them to the concrete with a Hilti gun. Laid a double thickness of vapor barrier, then laid 5/8" T&G OSB over the whole thing, then laid 1" blue Styrofoam SM, then a second full layer of 5/8" OSB, and finally screwed the whole thing down to the 1x3 strapping.... we then re-framed the whole building, over the new floor, leaving a 6" gap between the new walls and the existing walls, for a total of 12" in thickness. Not only are the walls very nicely insualted, having high R value, but there's also no thermal conductor, since the 6" gap has no studs connecting the two "walls", plus there's not even a conductor at the floor, since the first wall butts against the insulated floor, the the 'new' wall is over top of the floor.

Warm and cozy in deep cold, cool and comfy in hot weather(despite 90°+ weeks, the hottest the shop has ever been is 76..., mostly brought-on by the heat generated by the machines.

I swear if y'all would build to our codes, your air conditioners
 would run for 10 minutes, twice a day...., and your lighting would take care of winter heat needs <g>
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wes, do I get this right? Your wife is fine spending money on a heater and/or air conditioner; she's fine paying the utility bills; but she's not fine paying for insulation? Hmmm...you might want to study up on how to politely educate her to the various laws of thermodynamics, and then get her hip to the post-cheap-oil economy. Or have they outlawed the phrase "Peak Oil" in Texas?

Your payback on doing this right will be very quick. If you set up your shop and start working in it, you'll never do this right, and you'll be bleeding the death of a thousand cuts...
Author:  John How [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm well insulated and barriered and have installed a direct vented propane heater. I have a 50 gallon tank sitting 20 feet behind the shop with pipe buried. I have to fill the tank about 2 1/2 times per winter at about $60 a shot (of course the price goes up every year).
Author:  John K [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Wood stove burning really expensive scraps
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:43 am ]
Post subject: 
No!!!!

use the scraps on the BBQ.....

Mmmmmmmmmmm!
Author:  uncledave [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:55 am ]
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Hey WesTex,

I live in Denton County, not far from you.

The deal to me is to have a thermostatically controlled temp range. I
havent gotten into humidity control yet, but I believe that a tight
workspace, well weatherstripped and insulated, humidity control AND
temp controlled is the key to all this.

And my last year has been like yours, with my goals concerning guitars
taking a backseat to remodeling, work etc. So I can hear where you're
coming from. ;)

I'm considering a window mount heat pump unit. They work well in our
part of the world, and look to give thermostat control. I don't know
anything about the portable devices. It looks like you'd spend as much
and still have to duct to the outside.

Dave








Author:  KHageman [ Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:54 am ]
Post subject: 
What you need to do is insulate the place as much as you can. I have a 22 X
28 foot workshop that I heat and cool with a heat pump. I am in NC so the
extremes are not that great. With great insulation, my cost is almost
insignificant on my home bill. Ten or 15 dollars a month. All the windows
are thermopane and I keep a storm door on my entrance. I have a garage
type door that I have also insulated to some extent.
Author:  Billy T [ Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:10 am ]
Post subject: 
    I heard of a guy that used a small water heater and a recirculating pump of hot water under a subfloor through polyethylene tubing.

    Cheap and comfortable, wouldn't mess with rH either. I remember him using the thermostat on the water heater to regulate the temp. I've never seen it but it sounds reasonable.

    I've seen three cases of people putting in high efficency windows. Biggest bang/buck plainly! Insulation is good but windows hands down has it. All three have reported hardly even using the heater afterward. Drafts, inordinate heat loss, gone!
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:41 am ]
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The "water heater as boiler" trick works, but is terribly inefficient compared to a real boiler, and tiny ones are readily available. 

radiant floor systems have been around a long time, and are indeed a great way to heat an area. My brother's shop has such a system.
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