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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:50 pm ] |
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When it comes to jointing tops and backs what do you use? Hand plane and a shooting board or a jointer. I'm thinking of buying a delta 6" benchtop jointer. I was just wondering if i really need it. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:55 pm ] |
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Shooting board and a hand plane works great. For real difficult tops, I also use a 36" long straight extruded aluminum square with sandpaper attached to it. I use that to get it close, but I always follow up with the hand plane because I want to join planed, not sanded surfaces. |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:30 pm ] |
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A finely tuned ancient Delta 6" jointer with sharp knives and then hot hide glue. Invisible glue lines... You do have to develop a touch with a jointer just as with any other tool. Where you apply the pressure, how you shift the pressure, when to back off...it's all important for tight joints. What I never understood was why some power tool company hasn't come out with a true glue edge jointer...something like a large diameter head, four knife shaper with a proper jointer fence arrangement. It wouldn't need to have a very tall cutter head...just enough for the average glue line width. It would be much easier to handle top, backs, and a lot of the other kinds of pieces that get edge glued with a shaper table as a reference. Might just have to build one out of a shaper some day. |
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| Author: | Chas Freeborn [ Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:44 pm ] |
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I use my Shop Fox 8" four knife head jointer. What Rick said about finesse. My 1980 something Rockwell 2 hp shaper came with a fence that has independently adjustable fence halves to allow for use as a joitnting machine. If I was runnning a hundred or so tops a month I'd dedicate it for that purpose with a downshear spiral cutter. As it is I use it for a couple of neck making operations, as well as the occasional powerfed millwork run of moulding for furniture or my house... Speaking of neck making- Rick- did/do you use your pin router for the rounding operation? If so, what was the orientation of the stock/cutter/ pattern? -C |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:44 pm ] |
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Kevin Ryan uses the Fadal to cut his joints. Guaranteed dead straight line if it's along an axis. I'm sure an analog could be made with a near-zero-runout router of some kind on rails. I've been using my jointer, it's a General helical head and it makes nice joints. Considering the number of tops I'm about to join, though, I think the Fadal is going to get a new jig...the time savings will add up over 100 tops in one week... Also, I'm not sure if it was Mario mentioning it last night or a post here where I first heard it, but cut a notch out of the way on one of the plates at each end on the jointed face before joining and it's a lot easier to find the center line. |
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:37 am ] |
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I have a jointer but wasn't getting a very good joint (It is a Jet and needs some tuning). I tried the shooting board method and was very impressed. |
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| Author: | jhowell [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:56 am ] |
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I use a shooting board and an old Stanley #5 that has Hock steel in it. Simple, fast and quiet. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:07 am ] |
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I use a #7 Lie Neilsen plane with a shooting board made from phenloic faced plywood, but I used a 6" jointer for years with no problems at all. At McPherson we use a cnc as well. I even used a router table with a special fence I made to replicate a jointer for some time. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:48 am ] |
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I have been joining plates with just a plane and two boards and some clamps and the results are fine. The plane is a #5 reconditioned Record from Todd Stock and it works great and still has a great edge on it after many guitars.  This pic should be self explanatory. |
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| Author: | Glenn LaSalle [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:05 am ] |
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I am new to building, but have thought about this quite a bit. I came to the conclusion that for me, a hobbyist, it made sense to use the shooting board/plane method. I have a nice Record #5 and recently built my shooting board after studying the OLF archives. The archives are a treasure mine! Glenn |
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:02 am ] |
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For years I depended on the use of one particular jointer that I had access to for excellent results. Unfortunately that machine was destroyed in an accident during a move and for several years getting good results in joining tops was a problem. Recently at the Romanillos course in Spain Jose' illustrated the proper use of the shooting board and plane combination as well as the little tricks of pressure and release neccessary to producing a good join. Upon my return 10 bucks worth of material to make the board and the purchase of an old jointing plane (the big long one made by Stanley for Montgomery Ward) for 50 bucks on EBAY means that I've solved this particular problem. I think it is an excellent solution for the small builder. Yes, I have a small jointer but to match the quality of the shooting board approach you will need to make a substantial investment in a quality machine.
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| Author: | KHageman [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:45 am ] |
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I like using a shooting board with a 36 inch level. I attach sandpaper along the solid edge of the level and use it to true the joing. Has worked great for me. |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:55 am ] |
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The reason for a guitar builder to buy jointer isn't for edge joining but for surface flattening. Any edge joining in guitar work can easily be done in other ways. But for flattening neck stock, fingerboards, brace stock or backs (if re-sawing your own), a jointer is the way to go. And then, once you have it, edge joining is a breeze too. They do require good set-up though. The tables have to be co-planer and particularly, the outfeed table needs to be at just the right height. I find that the outfeed table height is so critical that I can get it perfect for joining rosewood backs and then have to adjust it slightly up for doing softer top wood. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:02 am ] |
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DP, I'd enjoy a picture or two of your setup if you have them available. Hesh, you use your straightedge under the stack, right? The gap between the plane's sidewall and blade ride along it if I remember correctly. That's the route I've been planning to go. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:20 am ] |
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I hate to hijack, but the basic question has been answered. Something that has bothered me for years about jointing with a plane: If a machine jointer has to have the outfeed table flush with the cutter, and the infeed a bit lower to cut a straight jointing surface, then how can a hand plane do it with the "infeed" and "outfeed" in the same plane and the cutter sticking up from that plane? If you set up a machine jointer like that, you would not get a true cut. |
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:20 am ] |
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James, here's my set up. The clamps allow me to two hand the plane though Jose' held the top with his left hand and worked the plane with his right. 
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:43 am ] |
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I think Howard it is that the plane actually works at a slight angle. The surface of the plane behind the blade become the "outfeed" table as you move through the cut. Obviously it's much longer than the front (infeed) surface and keeping steady pressure on the area behind the blade maintains the angle of attack. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:08 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]If a machine jointer has to have the outfeed table flush with the cutter, and the infeed a bit lower to cut a straight jointing surface, then how can a hand plane do it with the "infeed" and "outfeed" in the same plane and the cutter sticking up from that plane? If you set up a machine jointer like that, you would not get a true cut.[/QUOTE] Ignoring cutters, a jointer is a more advanced machine than a plane. It can do everything a plane can do, but can also move the infeed and outfeed independently of eachother whereas a plane essentially forces them to be coplanar. If you start with a convex surface, a plane or jointer with both surfaces level with the cutter will cut it to a flat given enough straight line passes. The trick is the linear passes. A jointer, because of the cutterhead being level with the outfeed, forces linear passes after the cut starts and so it continues to work even when the cutter projects past the infeed. A plane doesn't, so it's on you to control that. You could force a properly setup jointer to make the plane mistake, but you'd have to be very consciously rotating your work and ignoring contact with the outfeed. |
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| Author: | Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:45 am ] |
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I used to use a fixture (designed I think by Cumpiano) that had two precision ground steel rails on which a hand jointer plane would ride...the iron was ground narrower at the edge so it missed the rails. It worked great, but not any better than I can do now in 1/10 the time on my jointer. We are often doing runs of 20 to 30 tops, ditto on backs, and the jointer works great. Most of my employees touch up the edge on 150 grit self-stick sand paper on my pin router table using a vertical fence, but I don't seem to need to. Too many years using a jointer, I guess... |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:00 am ] |
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James buddy I used to use a 24" straight edge but after reading over and over again here that it was not necessary I nixed it. So no more training wheels here. The trick is to learn how to be very uniform in the pressure with the plane and to keep the sole flat on the edge at all times. If you use a level with sand paper on it, which I have used too to touch up a joint on the high spots - be sure to use clean paper on the level or dedicate it to only tops or only backs. Ever see a darker line in finished guitars here or on yours - if the joint was sanded with a level and dirty paper this is likely the cause. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:01 am ] |
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My jointer is fine for most tops & backs. I used a shooting board & still do once in awhile. BUT my jointer is set up perfect for just this ! BUT for figured woods I use a router table set up with a pattern making bit with a top bearing. I joined a 3/8" birch plywood piece on one edge(I run this edge along the bearing)-the piece is big enough to hold a 8" back taped together exactly how I want them. I just overhang the set enough for the bit to cut it cleanly! Comes out great every time! The router runs so fast & I move the jig so slow that there is NO tearout!! I have lots of highly figured woods and needed to have a sure way to join them. MIke www.collinsguitars.com |
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| Author: | Wade Sylvester [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:18 am ] |
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Howard, I think the work-around with the "infeed" and "outfeed" being in the same plane is also handled by backing in the blade as you shoot your final cuts. The blade is just barely sticking out shaving a very thin slice. This and the slight pressure behind the blade gets the straight cut. |
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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:31 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] I hate to hijack, but the basic question has been answered. Something that has bothered me for years about jointing with a plane: If a machine jointer has to have the outfeed table flush with the cutter, and the infeed a bit lower to cut a straight jointing surface, then how can a hand plane do it with the "infeed" and "outfeed" in the same plane and the cutter sticking up from that plane? If you set up a machine jointer like that, you would not get a true cut.[/QUOTE] Howard I'm glad you brought this up. I have had this same thought. I like to know the answer to this too. |
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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:35 am ] |
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[QUOTE=KHageman] I like using a shooting board with a 36 inch level. I attach sandpaper along the solid edge of the level and use it to true the joing. Has worked great for me. [/QUOTE] I think I like the idea of this method the best. If i'm gonna do it by hand. I have seen this method before in wood working magazines. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:57 am ] |
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Thanks, Hesh. You posted a tutorial on the way you like to joint and glue tops that I bookmarked. I thought the straightedge was pretty innovative and was looking forward to using mine, haha. By uniform pressure, do you mean uniform in front and behind of the iron? When I was running the school's shop in college, making manipulatives for the math dept., I joined a few tops and backs on the Delta Unisaw of all things. High quality blade and a sled. I have a video of it. Lots of great ideas in this thread. I like Mike's use of a router. |
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