Official Luthiers Forum!
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/

comments on side braces
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14467		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:12 pm ]
Post subject: 


i was just recently giving thought to side braces after watching some of the john mayes videos (THANKS JOHN!). then i stumbled upon this picture on the frets.com web site. as you can see, this guitar is signed by none other than rick turner in 1997. this style of side bracing makes the most sense to me, as it extends the full length of the side. ive seen other braces that only span the distance between the linings and also i know that others use glue soaked bias tape. what are your thoughts on these methods? like i mentioned, what rick has done in this photo makes the most sense to me, but id like to see things from others perspective as well. i was debating between having the lining stop short of the side brace and then start up again on the other side or possibly notching the lining for the brace (which sounds like a bit of work). the former would allow you to use short sections of lining, which i think could be a good thing. thoughts guys and gals?

Author:  Heath Blair [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
by the way, theres a bunch of other cool stuff going on in this picture as well.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Great analysis Todd - very comprehensive.

I use tapes and of course they extend through the "kerfed linings" as well.  I like tapes because it is a vintage method of building AND the lightest of all possibilities, beyond no supports at all, in weight.

Dave White uses carbon fiber rods as well to counter the compressive forces of the neck to body.

But if you use double sides you can forever kiss your crack good bye....  I hope to join the double side crew soon.
Author:  LanceK [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was at Tonys this evening, and he has a pair of Indian Rosewood guitars going right now, Tony builds a nice guitar by the way. Any who, his sides go a whopping .140 thick! No need to double side them! I swear you could stand on a set of his rims! And they were cutaways to boot! .140!!
Author:  MSpencer [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have only used side braces (wood) on my last 4 guitars and started because of discussions here on the this Forum. All of my previous guitars did not have any (none have cracked or had problems either). I go in between the linings. I started doing this as a preventative measure to keep sides from cracking at some possible point down the road. So this is to add a little insurance if you will. Also, I am building much lighter in nearly every aspect from where I once was, so a little extra strength and support down the sides makes me feel better.

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Notice too that there are no back braces but the back looks like it has a substantial dome to it as evidenced from the curl patterns in the wood.  It also look like a very thick back. 

I am wondering how Rich accomplished this - is it a laminated, pressed back ala Guild or one piece?
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:12 pm ]
Post subject: 

I figured it was an arch top because the sides don't appear to be tapered either. From the pic they look straight (and just guessing of course about 3")...

smells like an archtop to me.

Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's a Mini-400 fully carved back and top; what you see is the inside of the carved German maple back. The body shape is a 2/3 version of a 1934 Gibson Super 400.     It's only 12" across the lower bout, and it's a mando-guitar with six strings tuned in 5ths from the mandolin EADG to the mandola C, and then an F below that.   The finished instrument has a fanned fretboard with a fairly radical scale stretch from 15" under the high E to just over 17" under the F.   You can see a picture of it in the book "Custom Guitars" published by String Letter Press. It got a full multi black white black white black purfling job, bound and purfled "f" holes and a nice mid-30s style sunburst finish. Of all the instruments I've made, that was the one that was the hardest to give up to the client.   I have wood on hand to make another, and it's probably going to be a mandola instead of a guitar, and I won't fan the frets.    

I'd build another archtop this way, but I build my flattops a bit differently.     
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh, yes, that's a bookmatched back, fully carved. I did all the rough carving on my pin router as terraced steps, and then blended the steps with a 4" angle grinder with a 36 grit wheel.   I then refined the outside arch with a 5" Dyna Orbital sander, and then carved out most of the inside using a ball end bit and a ball topped pin on the pin router.   That way I could carve the back and top to a constant thickness first, and then graduate it.   It took about one morning to get the top and the back about 90% carved, and the last 10% and doing the "f" holes took another half day.   I refined the re-curves after the instrument was assembled.   It's got a bolt-on neck with the Allen head bolts accessed through the strap jack hole.

After building this, I said to myself, "I shoulda been an archtop maker...they get away with murder!"
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:23 am ]
Post subject: 

sorry guys. i was thinking that this probably wasnt an ordinary flat top guitar. my intent was just to spur some talk of side bracing in general. it was mentioned earlier that a lot of repair guys find it more difficult to repair cracked sides with bracing of any sort. can any of our repair pros weigh in here? it seems like side bracing would NOT prevent a crack, rather keep the crack from spreading from neck to tail.


i like what hesh said about the bias tapes being the lightest possibility. and not that it matters that much, but i just like the way some thin spruce, mahogany, or maybe matching side wood looks all tucked up in there. for me, thats just aesthetics though. id like to learn more about the practicallity of side braces.  


 
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Having repaired a few guitars that were cracked all the way around and through the end block, I'll go with side braces any day. I'd rather have a slightly harder time repairing a short crack than to have to deal with a guitar that's headed to being half it's original depth!

I repaired Buddy Holly's "Banner peghead" SJ/J-45, and it was cracked all the way around.   It was also covered in leather...done by Buddy...and Gary Busey, the owner, would not let me remove the cover to do the repair.   I had to do it all through the soundhole.   What a PITA that was, and I would not want to see what it looks like on the outside of the wood under the leather...but I don't think anybody ever will.   "Buddy sewed that there on there and you ain't takin' it off!" "Okey dokey, Gary..."
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
wow, thats an amazing story rick! thanks for the real world scenario and a bit of entertainment as well.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:59 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Rick Turner] That's a Mini-400 fully carved back and top; what you see is the inside of the carved German maple back. The body shape is a 2/3 version of a 1934 Gibson Super 400.     It's only 12" across the lower bout, and it's a mando-guitar with six strings tuned in 5ths from the mandolin EADG to the mandola C, and then an F below that.   The finished instrument has a fanned fretboard with a fairly radical scale stretch from 15" under the high E to just over 17" under the F.   You can see a picture of it in the book "Custom Guitars" published by String Letter Press. It got a full multi black white black white black purfling job, bound and purfled "f" holes and a nice mid-30s style sunburst finish. Of all the instruments I've made, that was the one that was the hardest to give up to the client.   I have wood on hand to make another, and it's probably going to be a mandola instead of a guitar, and I won't fan the frets.    

I'd build another archtop this way, but I build my flattops a bit differently.     [/QUOTE]


That is a fantastic book...


Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Side tapes, when properly done, approximately double the amount of force it takes locally to crack most wood sides, if I can beleive my measurements. Really strong and tough woods, like persimmon, don't get as much benefit, but then, they don't need it! I imagine side braces can be a bit more effective, so long as they extend under the liners,but I don't have data on them.

Side tapes can be quite effective crack stoppers in my direct experience. Iirc, Mark Blanchards two guitars that were recovered from the plane crash after the first Newport show had side tapes. The force was enough to shear the sides clean where the neck and tailblocks ended, to bend tuner posts, and punch the bridge of one guitar right through the top. But ths sides were still together, although I can't testify that there were no cracks in them.

If a side brace stops short of the liner it simply concentrates the stress at the juncture, where the crack will be really hard to fix. This according to one of my repair instructors, who has done restoration work on Strads and other fine instruments for the Met Museum in NY. As with any brace, either inlet them or feather them away to nothing.
Author:  Blanchard [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Al is referring to this guitar....
Author:  L. Presnall [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=LanceK] I was at Tonys this evening, and he has a pair of Indian Rosewood guitars going right now, Tony builds a nice guitar by the way. Any who, his sides go a whopping .140 thick! No need to double side them! I swear you could stand on a set of his rims! And they were cutaways to boot! .140!![/QUOTE]

Geez! How does he bend them? Or does he do like Owen Wilson's character in Meet the Parents, and carve them by hand from one piece of wood?
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Tony says that he "soaks them until they sink" usualy several days. Then bends them at normal temps. Believe me, they look fantastic. Nice smooth cutaway, tight waist, and VERY stiff.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Yep I have had this discussion with Tony too and Lance nailed what Tony does.

Tony also does not radius his sides either and the look is not only more traditional to me but kind of cool.

Tony is an example of how one who does not hang out at forums can develop what works for them independently and have great success with it too.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Hesh, Tony may not have mentioned this to you, but he is a student of the Del Langejans method of building. Del builds a TANK of guitar, and BOY do they sound sweet!
Tony has one of Dels hanging in his studio, next to a few of his personal guitars. Very good stuff!
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Oh, by the way, the post man brought me a nice little present Saturday! Thanks Man!
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/