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Bear Claw Spruce
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14432		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:42 pm ]
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I need some advice guys.  This is the first time that I have worked with bear claw and I am not sure what I am seeing here.

The top has only been thicknessed to .145 which is my preferred joining thickness.  My photos are not good here because what I see with my eyes is a bit more profound then what the pics show even though I used editing software to try to bring out the features of this top.

Frankly I have never seen bear claw before not under finish and what I see here looks like some run out to me.  And, it all depends on the angle that you look at it too, at some angles I see nothing at all, and at other angles I see darker spots, random patterns, but the patterns are not symmetrical to both sides of the top.

This top is a nice top, it rings well and is stiff in both directions.  But I also see wavy grain in places and I am concerned about my own ignorance here.

Would you please take a look and let me know if this looks like bear claw or excessive runout?

Many thanks!

The blue is not on the wood it is a reflection of a band saw.









Thanks in advance for your help!
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:46 pm ]
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Yeah, hard to see it. Unfortunately, it isn't always as symmetrical as we would like it to be.
Author:  KenH [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:28 pm ]
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You should be able to see the runout from the side if it has any, with the two pieces of wood looking different colors.


I have only made one guitar using bearclaw, and it was lightly clawed. From the pictures you have posted, it looks normal to me. A side shot would tell the tale if it is runout.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:09 pm ]
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VERY good chance i am showing my ignorance here, but i always assumed that bearclaw is runout. isolated areas where the grain swirls and changes direction. am i just confusing this with curly figure in hardwoods? you know what happens when you assume....
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:14 pm ]
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Well Heath I am right there with ya buddy so is bear claw run out?  And if so why is it acceptable?  And won't it change the way a top has to be braced for a desired voice?

Is bear claw basically a cosmetic preference at perhaps the expense of tone?

Mind you these are all question questions and not judgments - as admitted prior I am clueless about bear claw and getting a little paranoid about my tops from recent threads here.
Author:  old man [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:02 pm ]
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Hesh, here's what my last guitar top looked like before finish:






And here it is during finishing. Photography doesn't do it justice.




Ron
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:07 pm ]
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Beautiful Ron and that is the look that I wanted.

So you can see it without finish which tells me a lot about my top.  I think it's time to switch tops.

thanks buddy.
Author:  old man [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:12 pm ]
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Yup, This came from Steve at Colonial, and I picked out two more just like it this summer when I visited him. Very high quality!!

Ron
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:14 pm ]
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Hesh, the following is what Rick said about Bearclaw Spruce in the curly redwood hread: "Bear claw is different to an extent...the claw figures seem to be extra
dense and perhaps that sets up a whole other set of nodes and antinodes
in vibration patterns.   It's going to have a more complex set of
Chladni patterns, for better or worse. I have not noticed any
particular weakness with bearclaw spruce."  Also, do you remember that top on that beautiful guitar Joshua built.  It had bearclaw that screamed.  I'm not passing judgment, but thought you should think of all the angles.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:26 pm ]
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Good points Waddy and thank you buddy!!!!
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:26 pm ]
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Whoops - Thank you Rick too!!!!
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:27 pm ]
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Hesh, I think you are torturing yourself here.
Bearclaw can come in different degrees or amount of figure. Your top looks like bearclaw to me, just one with a mild case. I think it is a beautiful top!
You said it was stiff, rings well, so if you are still nervous about it, then send it to me. I'll use that wood proudly. I'd use Ron's top proudly too, but it looks a bit more committed than does yours. I love bearclaw, and really some of the best sounding guitars I've built have used this top wood.

No kidding, write me down as a fan...

Steve
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:35 pm ]
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I agree with Steve, Hesh. That top has mild bearclaw at best.

There sure appears to be a lot of nice medulary rays there, which shows how well the top is quartered.

Nice top.
Author:  CraigSz [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:25 pm ]
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Hesh I'm with Steve and Rod on this one . That top looks great to me and I cannot see any runout from the pics you posted. I just finished No 1 so just a beginner but the top that I used was from Steve at Colonial. It is  Adi with some nice bear-claw . It also has noticable runout but still seems very stiff. I am not at home so don't have any pics for you but will post some later if you would like.


 


regards


Craig.
Author:  CraigSz [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:27 pm ]
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Hesh is that Sitka spruce?
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:32 am ]
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Hesh...have you wet the surface with Naphtha? Does it show the figure any better? Ron's top really popped once the finish was applied and yours will too. I'd be interested in seeing a pic if you decide to wet the surface.

Aside from that, it sounds like the more experienced have weighed in on the appropriateness of the top. Since I'm also a bearclaw virgin, I am very interested in the discussion.
Author:  Ben Furman [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:09 am ]
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Bearclaw is my favorite figure in any wood, bar none.  Ron, the top you showed is stunning.

Hesh, I think your top will turn out very nicely.

-Ben
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:47 am ]
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Many thanks folks but I think that I did a lousy job of providing you guys with accurate pics.  Now that I have some daylight here take a look at these pics and please let me know if this is problematic?

Maybe it's me - there is a dirty look to this top that bothers me.....

Many thanks.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:16 am ]
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Bearclaw is localized run out.

But I wouldn't slow down for a second. Bearclaw tops can be as good as any other.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:14 am ]
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Hesh,

I look at using bear claw from two distinctive points of view based on the effect I am looking for

(I am not discounting tonal and structural aspects here but rather confining my reply to the bear claw patterning only)

1. Selecting for ultimate visual: pick a set that the pattern is symmetrical with very pronounced grain direction changes in the bear claw. This is for the bling bling factor effect.

2. Selecting for subtle charterer visually: Here I select a set with less that maxamum, more toward minimal bear claw and somewhat "A" symmetrical patterning. Don't discount a set like this just because the pattern is not highly clawed and or very symmetrical. Some time subtle work as well or better.

Author:  Dave Rector [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:15 am ]
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Hesh, I've built a couple of OM sized guitars with bearclaw and they are some of my favorites. Here's a pic of one I built several years ago that some fool carved up the top with a pick.

Author:  David Newton [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:27 am ]
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Hesh, you can test it for runout, split off a little, say 1/4" strip from the outside edge (if you can afford the diminished width) and break it different ways by hand. You'll see the runout if it is excessive or not. Doesn't look bad from the photos.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:15 am ]
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Hesh, use that top buddy.

Steve
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:30 am ]
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Hey Hesh, If it's as stiff as you said, It would seem the tone would still be good.
If you don't like the looks of it, you could always paint it Black, right?

Or maybe a nice burst..

Wade
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:49 am ]
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Bearclaw is NOT runout. It is deviation in the path of the ring of the annular ring of latewood that defines "grain lines." If you were looking at the end grain of a log with bearclaw, you would see the rings zig-zagging in and out from the center of the tree as they go around the circle. Typically the variation from perfectly circular is on the order of a half millimeter or so, but it is a sharp change out and back, over a distance around the circle of a couple of millimeters. [Sorry, I don't know how to use those graphics programs or I'd draw it] When sawn on the quarter, these variations show as bearclaw--local sideways movements of the latewood lines.

Your top may have a little weak bearclaw; it may also have some localized areas of runout.
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