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Curly Redwood Top
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14356		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  James W B [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:17 am ]
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So what`s the approximate thickness for a curly Redwood top.It seems plenty stiff with the grain,meaning neck to butt ,But a little weak across the grain.I remember Hesh`s beautiful peace guitar with that curly redwood, top that influenced me to try one.I`m thinking anything less than 120 may be too weak across,but I`d like to get it as thin as I can get away with.I don`t want to build a gutless guitar.It has a nice deep sounding tap ,which is encouraging for an OM cutaway.
                        James
Author:  peterm [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:36 am ]
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I know of a few people that have successfully built with curly redwood tops but I am still very skeptical about it. .120" sounds to thin to me.
So far I have used CRW for double tops or my semi double top method which I created to address these particular soundboards.
Author:  joelThompson [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:47 am ]
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I am currently building an om with a curly redwood top from bob c.

I took it down to 2.8 in the middle going down to 2.4 at the edges.

It is still about to "dead" for my liking and i hope to open it up by shaping
the struts a bit mor and doing some strategic sanding around the edges.

I think that you have to be a a bit carfull becouse it likes to split with the
grain cross grain it is very stiff and strong but i do worry about virtical
grain seperation and this is allways an option with crw soth its best to er
on the side of caution in this case.

Good luck i would like to here what you decide to do on this,

joel.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:14 pm ]
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It cracks me up to see people all worried about a little bit of runout in a top and then see people using curly redwood or koa which is nothing but runout.

Personally, I think that curly woods make poor tops, but they are probably great for job security for future luthiers.

I have a fantastic curly koa topped uke which I love, but it's not the best one we've made. Plain koa sounds better. I believe the same is true for redwood, but if looks are more important to you than sound...
Author:  James W B [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:18 pm ]
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I`ve got it thinned to about .140 at the moment.It actually sounds pretty good to me with a nice basey tap.I think I`ll go ahead and install the rosette and think a little more on it.If someone as talented as Peter thinks that .120 is a little thin I may just leave it where it`s at.
                      James
Author:  James W B [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:23 pm ]
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Actually Rick,sound is a lot more important to me than looks.I picked this top up for a great price at swap meet,more as a learning experience,to work with varied woods other than spruce.I also picked up some cedar.Although I must admit Hesh`s Redwood top is definately killer gorgeous.
                        James
Author:  peterm [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:59 pm ]
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I agree with Rick Turner. its a beauty versus tone with figured tops. Thats one of the reasons I chose to use double or semi double tops. The top layer is very thin and its mostly contributing beauty to the guitar while the bottom layer (spruce) is the main tone generator...
Author:  James W B [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:05 pm ]
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Sounds interesting.It may be well beyond my expertise.Has anyone done a tutorial on double tops? I`ll check the tutorial page.If not I would be interested in learning more about it.
                               James
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:14 pm ]
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James my curly redwood topped guitar with the top from Uncle Bob was finally thicknesses to .125 and seems to sound fine at that thickness.  It's better suited to using a pick but does not break up at all.

When I started working with this wood and before I had the benefit of deflection testing I guessed that redwood would probably be safe at a thickness some where between spruce and WRC.

I am happy with the results and this guitar was borrowed and used in a performance before hundred of folks but I was not there to get a picture since it was a bad day for me.
Author:  Bobc [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:22 pm ]
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James here's one I built about 5 years ago. No signs of cracking yet. I'd have to check my notes but is somewhere about .125 -.130

Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:58 pm ]
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Very pretty Bob - two things my friend.

First:  Any plans to start building again?

And second:  How did you get the ebony bridge so very black.  I love the look - inquiring minds want to know please?
Author:  Bobc [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:03 pm ]
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Hesh building again is always on my mind. I guess I just have to make some time. As far as the bridge it;'s just a piece of black ebony buffed out.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:14 pm ]
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Thanks Bob!!
Author:  joelThompson [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:17 am ]
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I agree that using curly woods realy does goe against what are used to doing
and that in theory crw should make for an unstable top.
but with the right construction tecniques and a little care i am hoping that
my current build will make a nice guitar.
if not well thats 1 point to experience.

joel.
Author:  James W B [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:50 am ]
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One reason I wanted to do different top woods was because I wanted to hear what differences there would be in sound.Bob I agree with Hesh,that`s a real beauty.Did you guys brace a little thicker to account for the top?This is an OM ,and I`m thinking about sticking with the Antes dimensions on the plan for bracing,although I`ve read some of the posts in regards to this being a bit heavy.Maybe this is another subject.
                      James
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:36 am ]
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James buddy I braced mine with 1/4" wide braces and I would not brace it any heavier than any other spruce top.

Even though Redwood can crack across the grain with little warning remember that this stuff held up the tallest trees on the planet.  The top that I got from Bob was stiff both along the grain and across the grain and I experienced no problems with it during the build and now nearly two years later.

The only thing that I would do is thickness it slightly thicker then spruce.

BTW tone wise it has good overtones like WRC, great projection like Adi, and is loud like Sitka.  Nice stuff!
Author:  Bobc [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:50 am ]
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James I agree with Hesh on the bracing. One area I would beef up would be above the soundhole. Maybe "A" style bracing. Another thought may be to add a ring of redwood on the inside of the soundhole. Say around 3/8" to 1/2" wide and about .100 thick.
It would appear as a thicker top when looking at the soundhole edge.
Author:  James W B [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:52 am ]
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Thanks Hesh,you never dissapoint.Out of curiosity,what`s the approximate thicknessing of WRC?
                        James
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:16 am ]
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"It is better to look good than to feel good" was the old Billy Crystal line. So if anyone thinks looks should trump structure and sound, curly redwood is your ticket. My suggestion would be to build a purely sculptural "guitar" and hang it upside the wall. It will look marvelous.

Had a talk with Harry Fleishman at Healdsburg about curly redwood tops. After several successful (for now at least) guitars topped with it, he had one that upon being completed and strung up literally flew to pieces. I think he said is was from the same log as the successful ones.
Author:  davidmor [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:46 am ]
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After reading about this topic, I also would like to see a tutorial about doing a double top.  I have a couple of curly redwood tops that I would love to use, but I sure don't want it flying top pieces when I string it up! A double top sounds like the ticket!    Peter, interested in doing a tutorial on the topic?
Author:  joelThompson [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:57 pm ]
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Hesh when you say it has a tendency to split across the grain do you mean
accross the width of the peice.

Becouse in m experience its fine this way but splits awfully up the length of
the board with the grain.
I keep any tops that split with the grain for electric guitar laminates this is a
great use for defect crw.

Please correct me if i am wrong i am here to learn,
Joel.
Author:  jeffreyyong [ Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:37 am ]
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This is my 12th CRW top guitar I've built and fortunately so far none of my customers has complained about any split. Not only CRW but with sap.... I got this wood from Harvey Leach, I brought one along to the GAL Acoustic Guitar Blind Test listening last year and it survived till the last 6 guitars on stage. I braced it a little heavier than I do on my other spruce top guitars. I hope this gives a little options for those who want to make guitars with a better different sound.


Jeff
Author:  Rick Turner [ Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:46 am ]
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Some of Harry's curly redwood topped instruments have gone through my spray booth, so I've seen them up close. I thought they were a disaster just waiting to happen.   And one did.

Double tops are not the answer.   The strength of a double top or any "stressed skin panel" depends almost entirely on the skins.   Thinking that you can get away with really thin incredibly weak wood for the outer skin shows a lack of understanding of how double tops really work.

So here you are talking about making the top thicker and what to do with the braces and all that, and it's all about the looks and has nothing to do with the sound.
And elsewhere on this forum folks are trying to push the limits on sound and see just how thin they can take the tops and where to thin them.   Talk about cross purposes!

This is about making beautiful GLOs, not musician's instruments.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:53 am ]
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Hi Jeff!!!!

This is yet another stunning guitar from you!   I love the sapwood look with CRW too.

Keep em coming my friend and I hope to get to my own Monkey Pod guitar soon.  Thanks again for all the guidance with that project.

Your biggest fan,

Hesh
Author:  jeffreyyong [ Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:04 am ]
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Thanks Hesh!


I hope to get more of that wood from HL. I asked him during the HGF and he's not sure to have sizes that i wanted, anyway it was salvage from a tunnel project or something like that...wow! and it was covered with cement for years!


Jeff
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