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Dovetail tutorial...
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14264		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Does anybody know where I can find a good tutorial or description of how to make a dovetail joint for attaching the neck? I know most people are now using some type of bolt-on neck, but I'd like to do a pure dovetail joint. I'm pretty comfortable cutting the actual joint, but I'd like to see more info on how to adjust and fine tune this type of joint.

Thanks!

John
Author:  Rod True [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
I can't help you John. I certainly would like to see a dovetail tutorial done.

Maybe Bruce Dikey will do one. He does the dovetail neck joint.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:31 pm ]
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Yeah I would like to see that too.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:21 pm ]
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Check out Stewmac's website. They have a tutorial on adjusting dovetail
joints. Its very useful.

Cheers Martin
Author:  Guy [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Here's one tutorial of making a dovetail joint by hand.
and fitting the neck to the body.
Author:  joelThompson [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Thats agood tutorial but it is also common practice to cut the dovetail
socket before gluing the back on that way you cut the whole socket out in
one go without worrying about damaging the back.

Then you can glue the back on before fitting the neck giving you a perfectly
enclosed socket.

Joel.
Author:  jhowell [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:28 am ]
Post subject: 

John Hall provided a good one over on the Kit Guitar Forum, though without pictures.  I know that he posts here once in a while...


John??


 
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:54 am ]
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I learned a good bit from Frank on this tutorial of a neck reset. Good Info, here is the link:

http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckRes et/00028Reset/00028reset02.html

Here is a second tutorial from Frank on resetting a Martin neck. All of this applies to new work. Check out the entire article on both links by hitting Page 1 buttons. I took you straight to the neck resetting.

http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckRes et/00045Reset/00045reset4.html

Why not learn from the Master himself! Frank Rules.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:15 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=joelThompson] Thats agood tutorial but it is also common practice to cut the dovetail
socket before gluing the back on that way you cut the whole socket out in
one go without worrying about damaging the back.

Then you can glue the back on before fitting the neck giving you a perfectly
enclosed socket.

Joel.[/QUOTE]
Joel, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here- are you suggesting that one should cut a 'through dovetail' in the neck block and sides, and just close off the bottom with the glued-on back?
I've never seen this, and I think it would be problematic. (Depression in the back over the void, no place to glue binding if you like to continue binding across the bottom of the heel, etc.) The closest I've seen to what you describe was a cheap Hofner 'classical' with a through-mortise, with the neck tenon butted against the back, and depending on the back for structural support for the neck angle- a disaster.

If I misunderstood your suggestion, please ignore all this!

Cheers
John
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Jigs for routing the mortise and tenon can be found in the MIMF library.

As for adjusting and resetting, it is very hard to describe, even with photos. Frets.com is good starting point. But I differ with Frank on one important part of the job. He says to use a tapered shim to make the joint tight after cutting back the face of the heel. I did my first few that way. About 1975 (yes, people knew how to repair guitars in the 70's) Stewie Port told me to do it by first making the gluing faces of the joint parallel so that the joint will draw tight. Then you can get the neck to set to the right depth by the thickness of your shim stack. This way you are doing both adjustments to the shims at the same time. For me, this was a breakthrough in making the job go smoothly. I was surprised to see that Frank doesn't do it that way.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:58 am ]
Post subject: 
That should have been "you are NOT doing both adjustments to the shims at the same time."

Lance and Brock: I know you guys have a lot on your plate, and I don't mean to be disrespectful of what you do here, but just when is it that we will be able to edit posts on this forum? Is anything being done about updating the software? We used to have editing with an earlier version of the forum. I never heard why it was lost.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 am ]
Post subject: 

John,


StewMac's Neck resetting video has Brian Galloup doing a reset where he completely rebuilds and adjusts a dove tail Martin neck /joint.


 
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Howard, I'm sure you don't read all the threads here like many other folks here do.

Anyway, The new software is slated to launch something in early November which will have an edit button.

Did you see this thread on the update
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Good info guys, thanks for all the links and video. I'm going to give it a shot as I complete my first steel string. Man, spanish heels are a piece of cake compared to steel string. I know the easiest way would have been to use a bolt-on neck, but I already have the tenon cut on the neck so I figured what the heck, I gotta learn sooner or later. My biggest concern is how to set the neck angle correctly, especially since the tenon is already cut. If I'm lucky everything will line up, otherwise it looks like it might be shim city...

Thanks!
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:35 am ]
Post subject: 
whilst the tutorial on the hand cut dovetail is quite clear, i would not recommend anyone make the joint as shown. anyone who has to reset the neck down the road will be cursing you because you did not leave any space in the block to insert the steam to loosen the neck.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elshaw,
Anytime I think of dovetails, I think of flying an airplane. You are right, getting it to come together setting a neck with a dovetail is a bit of a challenge. It also reminds me of riding a bicycle. Once you learn, you won't forget.

Back the the flying analogy. As you are coming in for a landing with your neck, you have to line up with the runway. No wind correction angle needed here, so check to make sure the centerline hits the tailwedge or join at the tail.

You don't want your neck climbing or descending either, it has a perfect spot and you just gotta keep trimming relieving and sanding as in the pic of Frank above.

Necks can yaw right or left so no barrel rolls please. It takes practice, and you will get it.

I have a few suggestions. Get your chisel mirror sharp. Find some old carbon paper like they used in typewriter days. Transferring blue marks to mating surfaces is very helpful unless of course you have xray vision like Superman. Thirdly consider gluing some sandpaper to a piece of paper for additional rigidity. This stiffened sandpaper will give you strength to sand the joint surfaces.

Eventually your proud neck fit will fall into place. Martin kits usually will be about 3/8ths inch proud, so you have some paring to do. Once you have your rough'ed in join. Go ahead and glue on your fingerboard and put on the finish, unless you are finishing your neck in which I don't recommend. Someone will love you later for this.

Fire up the hide glue when it's time and glue this baby together. It will work and work well. I know you'll be careful to get it right and yeah, you'll have to tweak the fit a bit after finish and before gluing.

I labored over my first 11 hours (mostly fretting about what I was doing). The second and third took about three hours apiece. (quite an improvement, but still too long) Now I spend close to an hour and a half setting a dovetail. (still too long and I know it can be done much faster)

I remember my first few landings too, they weren't much, but I survived, and hey, the guitars are still out there on the job. Knock on wood.   

Go John, you have some folks here rootin' for ya.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh, and I did go flying with a friend in his Cherokee 140. It was very nice out today, scattered small clouds and minor haze, lots of sun. Four knots of breeze made landing uneventful at Petit Jean and RUE.

I saw for the first time two concrete dome school buildings in Hector Arkansas capable of withstanding an F5 tornado which I think is incredible. Visionary school leaders in Hector.

Good luck on those dovetails John   
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey]

I remember my first few landings too, they weren't much, but I survived, and hey, the guitars are still out there on the job. Knock on wood.   

Go John, you have some folks here rootin' for ya. [/QUOTE]

Thanks Bruce, I like your airplane analogy. Did I ever mention I've been in three helicopter accidents and one jet that went off the end of a runway. Hmm, maybe I better take my time!   

John
Author:  Bill Greene [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
There's a repair guy, with a good repuation, named Bryan Kimsey who at least "used" to have a nice photo tutorial of how to set/reset a dovetail neck...haven't been to his site in awhile, but I'm sure if you search for it you can find it.

Author:  joelThompson [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:42 am ]
Post subject: 
[/QUOTE]
Joel, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here- are you
suggesting that one should cut a 'through dovetail' in the neck block and
sides, and just close off the bottom with the glued-on back?
I've never seen this, and I think it would be problematic. (Depression in
the back over the void, no place to glue binding if you like to continue
binding across the bottom of the heel, etc.) The closest I've seen to what
you describe was a cheap Hofner 'classical' with a through-mortise, with
the neck tenon butted against the back, and depending on the back for
structural support for the neck angle- a disaster.

If I misunderstood your suggestion, please ignore all this!

Cheers
John[/QUOTE]

Sorry if i was confusing all i was saying is that alot of people cut the
dovetail socket before gluing the back on.
this is the way i do it and it doesent cause any problems as far as iam
aware it is the standard method here in the uk.

the neck angle is dependant on a good tight fitting joint where the main
support is offerd by the sides of the dovetail.

we all have our own ways of working and just becouse it works for me
dosent meen it will work for anyone else.

i will try to do a tutorial of the method i was taught.

i should point out that this is the method i was taught at college in
merton college london that has been running since the 70's.
so i am sure i am not the only other person using it.

joel
Author:  joelThompson [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Also i should point out that i trim the dovetail itself shorter than the heel so
that the binding dosen't get in the way when you are fitting the neck.

Its very hard for me to explain becouse of my dyslexia but i am doing a
socket at the moment so i will take photo's and post my method in a
diferent thread.

I am sure that some will like my method others wont.
But i am learning so i am open to constructive critism.

Thanks,
Joel.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Joel-
Thanks for the very clear follow-up messages.
If you were working without a router and cutting the dovetail by hand, your method would certainly make more sense- something I didn't think about. Perhaps this comes from the violin tradition where the plates overhang the ribs?
It's easy to get addicted to the 'jigs and routers' style of building, and sometimes not think about the alternatives. And, of course, you could cut the dovetail that way with a router as well.

Thanks again- it's good to hear about other ways of building.

Cheers
John
Author:  joelThompson [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks john,

I should have mentioned that i dont use a router at all to cut my dovetails
as i prefer a hands on aproach.

I love jigs and routers etc but i was taught to use hand tools and as such
prefer to stick with what i know.

My first guitar was built compltly with hand tools only using a router for
the truss rod socket.

You are right using a router it makes sense to build the whole body first
but if you are only using hand tools then my method is good way to do it.

Joel.
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