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I have been contacted by a locally popular professional classical flamenco guitarist who is wanting me to build a guitar for him. I have not built classicals so far, but have been looking for a reason to start building them.

With that being said, I am interested in looking at body styles and woods to suggest to him. I know that some of you regularly build classicals and flamencos, and wondered if you would please suggest some really good patterns and styles for me to suggest to him?

Thanks much!

Ken

 

PS: a marketing note:

This guy was reccomended by one of my clients who purchased a steel string guitar from me. He was, and is still, impressed enough to reccomend me to others.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Ken, GAL has a number of plans available, and I'm sure there are other places that have some.  The book Making Master Guitars by Courtnall, has plans for a number of the famous old builders, Fleta, Hauser, Torres, Santos Hernandez, Friederich, Bouchet, and Romanillos.  The plaintillas are small, but are drawn on graph lines so they could be easily redrawn.  They can also be scanned and enlarged to the correct size with some finageling.

If you want to look at Classical guitar pictures, go to www.guitarsalon.com and look at their guitar selection.  They have lots of high end classicals for sale or that have been sold.

I think you are going to find that many of the classical builders, really feel that the Torres designs have not been fully exhausted, nor surpassed by much.  The recent Smallman discussion was a case in point.  I'm sure there will be disagreements on this subject, as there are on most in any type of guitar construction opinions.

I chose the Romanillos style, for my first, because I like his philosophy on construction, at least from what I have been able to read, and learn from those here on this forum.  I was also drawn to the smaller body size of his guitars.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Your customer will probably have his own specific desires as to what he wants, though, if he's already an established guitarist.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I second the Courtnall book.  Buy it right away, its worth every penny.

Based upon what you describe, I would choose the Santos Hernandez guitar, and use Cypress for the body and good spruce for the top.  Euro if you can get it, Lutz or Engleman otherwise.  Sitka will work, but the plans aren't optimized for it.

Contrary to its use on "cheaper" guitars, many builders prefer Cypress for its acoustic performance.  I haven't used it myself, and have only played one guitar built of it. I plan to as soon as I can.

Presently, I'm on a maple kick.

FWIW, Torres built almost as many maple guitars as rosewood.  His two most famous ones, FE 08 and FE 17 were Bird's Eye and Curly respectively.  It was only after Segovia had his hands on the '37 Hauser that the BRW thing really got entrenched.  He, Segovia, was so arrogant I can't believe it; and the way that the treated poor Santos...criminal.  (Santos built his guitar while working for Ramirez, the one he showed to Hauser.)

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Thanks for the tip on the book. I ordered the Courtnall book on amazon.com and also another book I had been wanting. I like to be prepared for meetings. I guess 25 years of climbing the corporate ladder geared me toward doing this. I'll read the book from cover to cover next week while I'm on a cruise. Will make for some pleasant reading I'm sure and I'll learn alot in the process.

Thanks guys!

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I did find out that he now uses 2 guitars for his gigs. One is a hand made guitar that was made by "Lyle Devenport" in Blaine, Minnesota. Anybody ever heard of him? The other guitar is a Takamine classical.

He plays Flamenco style, and wants a true Flamenco guitar. This should be a good challenge for me and I am looking forward to it. I'm sure I will have tons of questions about this since I have not built a classical or Flamenco guitar before.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Ken - You need to find out if he favors smaller or larger bodies (I don't know where the Takamine falls in that range, or the luthier-built one).

For classical guitars, the Rodriguez Jr turns out to be a fairly easy guitar to get "right", in terms of balance, but the body is huge - too big for most people's comfort if they are used to smaller instruments. (As a steel-string player, I couldn't see what the fuss was).
I've seen flamenco versions of Rodriguez' guitars, but I don't know what adjustments he made to the bracing pattern.

I am building 2 flamencos after the GAL Reyes plan. Bridge goes on #1 this weekend, so I'm obviously not at a point where I can make any evaluations. Santos Hernandez and Barbero are other good points of reference.

I'm starting a few classicals now, following Jose Romanillos' design. Other end of the size spectrum.

I've gotten fairly addicted to this now and don't think about steel string guitars too much anymore. (I have a friend who wants a small-body Gibson style blues guitar, though - hmmm...       )

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

This is probably way more than what you want, however:

I kind of hesitated a bit when i first read the question because people often transpose classical and flamenco as the same thing.

If he wants a true flamenco I'd be wondering if he wants a flamenca blanca or a flamenca negra.

Does he want it for rhythm playing for dancers and singers, solo playing, a hybrid type sound?

Ask him to play for you.
Ask him what he is going to play, mostly.
Some guitars are dark sounding and good for deep sad emotive songs like siguriya, or soleares.
Other guitars are nasal sounding and good for Bulerias, which is happy and a bit of a lark.
Ask him what he wants, and what he plays the most of.

Flamecos have a large vocabulary or words to describe these things.
"Duende"

Generally, the bigger the guitar the more bottom end overtones that are created and the darker the emotions implied.
Consider those things when deciding on a plan.
Flamenco guitars often have a nasal voice.
60's condes are an example.
A guitar that honks is good to play Bulerias or Tientos on as a generalisation.
But i think you can come up with a formula if you approach things from those perspectives.
And take it from there.

I've heard great things about GAL plan number 42, Ex Sabicas 1951 Marcello Barbero, which will create a raucus sound, a bit more nasal, and quite dry .
Alot of people still like that type of sound.

An open soundboard design, such as used by Santos Hernandez will, as a generalisation, create something similar.

For a modern sound, I've heard great things about GAL Plan number 53, Manuel reyes plan.
A large guitar with alot of bottom end projection.
You'll get more of a concert flamenco sound with that type of guitar, with enough percusion for nice rhythm playing, combined with enough sustain and colour for solo flamenco guitar playing.
Tom Blackshear's site has a brief discussion about it here
I find large guitars are a bit boomy for my personal taste, and not quite as dry. However the Reyes sound is quite excellent!!!!

Flamenco guitars are essentially percussive.

Some makers believe that a tightly packed grain structure on a flamenco guitar soundboard won't produce enough of the upper register overtones that are required for flamenco.

However you make it, make it scary light. soundboard 2.1mm, back 2.3, sides, 1.9mm...ish
Thin soundboards, and even thinner sides.

Domingo Esteso and Santos Hernandez' guitars typically weighed 1,200 - 1,350 grams, and the plates were super thin.
If you make it light explore the idea of friction pegs to balance the weight so its not head heavy.
Ask the client about if he has a problem with the balance of a guitar with machine heads.
Theres nothing worse than a guitar that drops at the head when you play it.
Depending on his playing style.

Don't discount a spruce topped Ramirez.
60's design.
There used to be alot of them around, as well as conde's.
Ask your friend if he has access to one, and see if you can get it in your hands and take some drawings, and that will be better than any plan.

Have fun.
what a great challenge.

Claire

Ken,

LMI sells the Courtnall plans (along with other good classical and flamenco) and has the kit wizard so you can source any and all of the materials needed.  Of the Courtnall Plans that are completely Flamenco I would recommend the Santos Hernandez as it is covered well in the Courtnall book and the plans are good.  I agree with Waddy that the Romanillos is a great plan but its bracing plan is more complex than the Santos so if this is your first Classical/Flamenco you may want to stick to the Santos. 

Traditional wood for back and sides for flamencos is Spanish Cedar which is actually more expensive than good East Indian Rosewood but is a great wood that smells good also.

Acceptable alternatives are Monterey Cypress which looks much like Spanish Cypress but has much less smell or Alaskan Yellow Cedar (some times called Canadian) which has more of a scent but is more yellow in color.

Maple as has been mentioned is also traditional although some Flamenco players still believe that they need Cypress.

If it is a classical then there are two schools of thought.  Torres is the master that all modern classicals are derived from.  Hauser modeled his guitars on the size and shape of a Traditional Spanish guitar and is the closest in size to a Torres but used very different dimensions and building techniques so his is a German interpretation of a Spanish guitar.  Most of the other 19th and 20th century Spanish guitar builders are close to the Torres/Hauser model. 

In the 1960's Ramirez started building a big bigger shape, a much longer scale length (from 650mm as the norm became 660-667mm) and using Western Red Cedar (which was never used in Spain before).  Most of the Spanish builders since then have tried to imitate Ramirez which in some peoples opinions is not based on empirically what has proven to be better.  While European Spruce takes a while to play in and continues to get better with time, Western Red Cedar sounds played in from the start but never gets better with age and may at somepoint start to lose its tonal range faster than Spruce would.

More recent builders such as Smallman and others have moved further from traditional forms and have resulted in guitars that are very different in sound and construction from a Spanish classical guitar.  Think of the difference between a Martin Dreadnaught and an Ovation.

The most important thing to consider when building a classical or flamenco guitar is to not overbuild.  A classical or flamenco guitar needs to be built tomaximize string vibration and air movement due to the much lower string tension.  An overbuilt classical will sound thin but an overbuilt flamenco will be too quiet and thin to be cut through all of the other sound going on in the flamenco group.

 

Shawn - Can you get enough of a rapid attack for flamenco using a cedar top? From my very limited experience, I'd guess not, but that could just be my inexperience speaking.

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Ken,

Don't build that guitar!! it will spoil you something awful for anything else.

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Ken;
I used the 1951 Barbero plan available from the G.A.L>
for years!
it works!!!
R.E.Brune' drew it up a few years ago from the real thing!

www.collinsguitars.com

good luck
Mike

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Mike Collins

Thanks again for all the help!

I knew I would get some good advice!

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

In my opinion Western Red Cedar is not the right wood for a flamenco and even though it sounds played in from the start and there are a number of builders who build both classical and flamenco guitars with WRC, I would not use it for a classical either.

Barbero is a really good plan and I have used it also.  My recommendation of the Santos was based on if the Courtnall book is to be the guide then the Courtnall plan for a Santos is a flamenco plan.  There are many who believe that Barbero is perhaps the best flamenco builder.

My personal preference is smaller bodied classical/flamencos with Euro Spruce top.

[QUOTE=Shawn]

Traditional wood for back and sides for flamencos is Spanish Cedar which is actually more expensive than good East Indian Rosewood but is a great wood that smells good also.[/QUOTE]
Shawn, I'm guessing you meant to type Spanish Cypress?


Ken,

My understanding is flamencos, like Shawn and Claire said, are lighter, thinner bodied, low action compared to a standard classical. Also, I often see them made with pegs instead of tuners.

Ken, remember you have to put a completely different thinking head on when making a classical/flamenco, they are totally different instruments to steel strings. I've built 30 or so steel strings and a number of lutes but I'm finding building my first Torres classical has me thinking hard about the process, and I'm getting real expert guidance.

You'll need to make a solera as with the Spanish heel you build it face down on the solera. Some join the top to the neck first while some join the sides to the neck as the first step. I'd do a lot of planning before you pick up a chisel.

Colin

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S]

You'll need to make a solera as with the Spanish heel you build it face down on the solera. Some join the top to the neck first while some join the sides to the neck as the first step. I'd do a lot of planning before you pick up a chisel.

[/QUOTE]

I'm sure I will find out what a spanish heel is when I start reading the books I have ordered, but I wondered if you could go into a little more detail about the solera and the spanish heel? Both of these terms are alien to me as a steel string builder....

One other thing that concerns me is string selection. With a steel string, I know there are guages and "sets" of strings that have a pretty standard set of guaged strings. I know all about the steel ball at the end of the string. I have no clue about classical strings and how they attach to the bridge. A tutorial on this would be a handy thing to have reference to.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Ken,

Welcome to the other side!  Keep your eyes open and your wits with you as you wander through the labyrinth.

Even though the general feeling amongst many players and builders is that Classical/Flamenco guitars are pretty "set" and "standard", nothing could be further from the truth.

The Courtnall book will guide you very well through all the steps of building a classical guitar as we have come to know it.  It has everything that you need to build a successful instrument.  It stays clear away from the alternatives and the innovations, sticking to the established "Master" guitars.  And that's OK.

The Spanish heel is simply a neck and heel block that is integrated as one piece.

The Solera really is a pretty cool and effective building tool.  Think radiused dish on steroids.  Setting the neck angel is quite critical.  Some adjustment is allowed by building in the Spanish method as the fingerboard is finished in place prior to fretting.

Some minor adjustments to string height can also be accomplished by using a longer saddle. The saddle needs to have some taper to it to allow for the bass string vibration arc, so if the saddle is longer, then as you slide it back and forth through the saddle slot, you can adjust the string action.  A nice touch to allow for seasonal changes, one that most players could actually understand and master!

You can build with a bolt on neck, too, many builders do.  There are also adjustable necks such as Stauffer developed, or the kind that Smallman uses.  Same principle, different adjustment location.

One innovation that is really quite useful is the 12 hole bridge, but even better is the 18 that Romanillos developed.  Most players don't think beyond 6 anyway, so they won't feel hard done by if you only give them a 6 hole bridge.

Its very easy to get sucked into all of this, your head can start to spin.  Stick to something established and build it well.  Good luck and enjoy the journey!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

You've already gotten some good advice here.

I'm a classical maker. I've never made a flamenco guitar (I will, for myself at some point), but here is what I would do if a professional flamenco guitarist approached me about building him a guitar:

#1. Turn down the comission and direct him to someone who specializes in flamenco guitars. I've never made one, this person is a professional player and I know I could probably make a good one but it would take several before making a really GREAT one.

... if he insisted on being my guinea pig I'd do this:

Use Spanish Cypress for the back and sides.
Use Spanish Cedar for the neck, back braces and linings.
Use European Spruce for the top.

I wouldn't even consider alternative woods to those, especially being my first flamenco.

I'd also probably use Pegheds.

Then I'd use the Barbero plans. Everyone seems to have a lot of success with those. I'd stick as closely to them as possible.

Stick to the plans, use the right woods, make no subsitutions on how to do things to make it easier (like don't bolt the neck on) and you'll probably come out with something close to what you hope.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

You also run the risk of not wanting to make any mroe steel string guitars after this.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Opps yes...typo...Spanish Cypress..

 

I have seen Kenny Hill and others build with sides and back of Spanish Cedar as it can sometimes be found as curly but I meant Cypress

Ken,

As Joshua says the Barbero plans are good place to start and many have built from them. As a flamenco player for the last 40 years or so and a collector of flamenco guitars, I would recommend trying GAL plan #53 of the Manuel Reyes flamenco.

The GAL plan was developed by Tom Blackshear, a well respected builder of both flamenco and classical guitars in his own right. Tom was so impressed with the Reyes which he borrowed from Chris Kamen so that he could copy it that he changed his builds to incorporate some of the Reyes ideas.."

Reyes is very well known and the guitars of both he and his son are in high demand. Here is a quote from Tom Blackshear: "Manuel Reyes is one of the greatest flamenco builders in the world, who has his shop in Cordoba Spain..... He has a waiting list that exceeds what may be my age potential....His son is also building good instruments in the tradition of his father who gives him ongoing support.....In my opinion, there is not a better flamenco builder than Reyes..

Most of the Reyes flamencos that are offered for sale now are in the "inquire for price" range which usually indicates that they are asking well in excess of $10k. Take a look at Chris Kamen's Classical Guitars International website to get an idea of what I'm referring to;
     Classic Guitars International - Flamencos

I have now built two guitars from these plans; a blanca of Euro Spruce/Spanish Cypress and a negra; Euro Spruce and IRW and both of them have turned out well beyond my expectations.

Joshua's advice is sound; if your customer insists on being a guinea pig then build it for him.... but a truly great flamenco isn't built on the first try. YMMV

Regards,

Peter

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Peter

The Blackshear- Reyes plan is great -except for the lack of string compensation to make it play in tune-!
Compensation is not a compromise anymore!
Like it used to be!

Tom is a builder in love with the old & romantic period!
But this is a time for players to get guitars that play in tune AND ARE TRUELY useful for the demands of modern music also!
The Barbero plan is really better!
Just take a look!

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Mike Collins

Ken, just for fun, you might want to look at the series of pictures, also on the Guitars International web site, for Claudio Meneghelli's construction slide show.  It shows the build on a solera, his way.  But, it will give you some idea.  You can stop the slides by right clicking on the picture, and clicking on play. To start it back up right click again, and click play again.  It will let you freeze the frame on each picture and let you study it.  It is pretty informative, or, at least, it was to me.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

This is off the topic but if you look at the slideshow of Claudio's build, you will see the go bar deck that Romanillos uses.  Instead of using fiberglass rods or other types of flexible sticks in the go bar deck, Jose Romanillos uses dowels that slip into a PVC pipe section in which a small spring is inserted.  This helps to apply tension straight down at the point of tension and is easier to control than more flexible sticks.

I have switched to it and really like it.  Joshua I believes uses it and David LaPlante got to use it at the class also.