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On Failing . . .
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14202		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I didn’t fail ten thousand times. I successfully eliminated, ten thousand
times, materials and combinations which wouldn’t work.

— Thomas Alva Edison, holder of 1,093 U.S. patents
Author:  Parser [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Add one to the list for me! I just boogered some sides and converted them to BTU's.   

I hate to fail....but it is overcoming these hurtles that makes it all worthwhile...I think you have to love a challenge in order to even think of taking this stuff on as a hobby, much less a profession.
Author:  James Orr [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree. I like the way Edison framed it.
Author:  robertD [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
James,

Very interesting quote. If I get the gist of this, Mr. Edison had no failures, because he believed
that every task undertaken, every experiment performed, and every theory exhausted, was not just
a process of elimination. Every time he tried something new, he learned something new, adding to
his knowledge, and every step taking him closer to his ultimate goal.

What a wonderful perspective to possess! Thanks James, I really got a lot out of that one!

Now, if I could apply that to my guitar building? Well! Who knows where I could go!

Robert
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Edison also bought his way into inventions ... he didnt invent the light bulb - he bought the patent rights from a canadian farmer - he then perfected it. He was a very savvy businessman .... and he also had quite a lab full of scientists working on stuff for him.
Author:  Jim Samuel [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] Edison also bought his way into inventions ... he didnt invent the light bulb - he bought the patent rights from a canadian farmer - he then perfected it. He was a very savvy businessman .... and he also had quite a lab full of scientists working on stuff for him.[/QUOTE]

None of which has any effect on the meaning or spirit of the quote.

Jim
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some say that Edison's greatest invention was the industrial research lab. He set up an environment where scientists and engineers could attack a problem and have the resources necessary to see it through. It takes time and money to fail 10 thousand times.

As for the light bulb, the incandescent light was a well known approach before Edison started working on it. The only problem with it was that it didn't work. Edison had two advantages on this problem. One, the time and money to spend and two, he had a better vacuum pump than others who were working on the problem.

The phonograph, however, seems to have come completely out of the blue. From all accounts that I've read, he just walked into the lab one day and directed a machinist to make his design. The machinist did and it worked the first time. There was no prior art of any kind. Another interesting thing about the phonograph is that 15th century craftsmen could have easily built one with the skill and materials that they had at the time.

As for failure. My first guitar neck has a special place of honor in my shop. It look at it periodically to remind myself that, indeed, I am getting better at building.
Author:  burbank [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:21 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Bill Gates did the same kind of thing purchasing the rights to a not so hot operating system and transforming it into what most of you are looking at today...
[/QUOTE]

I would offer a differing slant on Gates. He bought DOS from IBM, then overlaid it with his spin on Apple's interface, which Apple got from Xerox.

I like that quote of Edison's. Sort of like: not having attained a goal is part and parcel of reaching it. Or part of getting to the top of the mountain is the climb. If there's no climb, what have you accomplished? Each step is another "closer, but not there yet".

But more in the vein of Edison's quote, each "failure" is a course correction, (unless I'm really not watching where I'm going).

It's where testing on scrap really pays off!
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Gee;
I thought this was a post about making mistakes in the shop (on Guitars)
30 years of making guitars and I still make usually small dumb mistakes-(i hang my big ones on the shop wall to remind me of it)I do allot of hand work-not jig everything!
Most woodworkers need to learn how to hide there mistakes-NO difference with guitarmakers!

I actually find it more satisfying to cut,carve,plane,and sand by hand!
I just want to keep the romatic side of guitarmaking alive in me!AS I perceive it!

Mike
www.collinsguitars.com
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:36 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=burbank] [QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Bill Gates did the same kind of thing purchasing the rights to a not so hot operating system and transforming it into what most of you are looking at today...
[/QUOTE]

I would offer a differing slant on Gates. He bought DOS from IBM, then overlaid it with his spin on Apple's interface, which Apple got from Xerox.

I like that quote of Edison's. Sort of like: not having attained a goal is part and parcel of reaching it. Or part of getting to the top of the mountain is the climb. If there's no climb, what have you accomplished? Each step is another "closer, but not there yet".

But more in the vein of Edison's quote, each "failure" is a course correction, (unless I'm really not watching where I'm going).

Gates did not buy DOS from IBM, He contracted to develop DOS for IBM with the rights to retail the operating system once completed. IBM did have a operating system that that was DOSish That was the starting point of the development that Gates and his partner got as part of the deal, but that system had huge flaws. It seem that IBM did not foresee a consumer based computer industry with any hardware competitors so they assumed that they would be the only client Gates would have

It's where testing on scrap really pays off![/QUOTE]

The way I understood it Gates did not buy DOS from IBM, He contracted to develop DOS for IBM with the rights to retail the operating system once completed. (I guess you could call that buying) IBM did have the beginning of DOS but that system had huge flaws. Gates and his partner completed the development and negotiated the rights to the final product. It seem that at the time IBM did not foresee a consumer based computer industry with any hardware or software competitors so they assumed that they would be the only client Gates would have, So they did not think they were losing anything by doing so.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Another Edison Quote-
"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration"
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Mike,
   I have the same experience. After all these years building and all the
instruments I've built, I sometimes surprise myself by making a mistake
that I may have made hundreds of guitars ago.

   I've spoken privately with some builders who have established a
perception by the public that they make no mistakes and every guitar is
perfect or very close to perfect. They've shared some of their mistakes
with me... that they've made recently. Does it make me feel better that we
all have days that can embarrass us? Not at all!

   It just helps a little to know that I'm not alone in a world where
experience never takes the humanity out of the experienced. As long as
i'm relying on my two hands to maintain most of the control over the
outcome of any step in the process of a guitar's construction, I'll have to
stay keenly aware of their abilities and shortcomings.



Hesh,

    Bill Gates has done some amazing things to make Windows what it is
and MicroSoft the worldwide power that it is. I'm an Apple guy, but we've
always had a pair of Windows machines in the house for the kids to be
able to interface with the schools on.

    I think the most brilliant and ongoing accomplishments has been his
ability to continue to hold his market captive as new software calls for
new processors and new processors call for new software. Bigger, faster
more powerful and with more bells and whistles all the time....it's a very
cool thing to watch hold onto its huge marketplace.

   Bill and his crew have made their share of mistakes over the years, but
their answers to tham are usually so good that the mistakes are quickly
forgiven and largely forgotten.



Todd,
   Edison's battle with Tesla was a nasty part of his life...actually both of
their lives and unltimately the downfall of Tesla's hope of establishing the
electricity empire that Edison went on to build.

   Tesla was an amazing guy with very different and brillant ideas of his
own. I was able to see a generator that basically captures the concept of
perpetual motion by using rare earth magnets and a weighter flywheel to
continuously run while producing enougn electricity to power a residence
with a surplus of electricity that can power the rest of the block.

   The concept is awesome, but the production and placemant of these
generators have been benned so far by government regulations
controlling the electric grid nationwide. If they are ever available, the
surplus power will be able to be dropped back into the grid to provide
some relief to the heavily taxed system.

    One has evidently been running trouble free for decades and needs
only to be shut down for general maintenance for a day or so every few
years. I have some interesting info on it and a proposed program to place
them in one million homes in the future, but the electric companies and
their powerful lobbies have prevented it from being approved and moving
forward.

    Both guys had the ability to carve deep lasting places for their ideas
and technology, but that argument hurt them both.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:56 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm so glad they DID figure out the light bulb.
That way I can now see my failings at guitar building so well after hours.

Wade
Author:  burbank [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:10 am ]
Post subject: 
"The way I understood it Gates did not buy DOS from IBM, He contracted to develop DOS for IBM with the rights to retail the operating system once completed."

Right you are, Michael. Memory jogged.
Author:  Jim Samuel [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:23 am ]
Post subject: 

[QUOTE=burbank]I would offer a differing slant on Gates. He bought DOS from IBM, then overlaid it with his spin on Apple's interface, which Apple got from Xerox.
[/QUOTE]

Gates did not buy DOS from IBM. He bought it from someone else and then resold it to IBM, but kept the rights so he could sell it to others too.

Jim
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Right you are Jim .... but maybe its saved him a couple hundred iterations


I liken the quote to jig making - many times I have had an idea to make a jig, build it, then find out parts of it dont work as I thought - or didnt think of is more like it, and then the iterations and mods start up. I built a jig, to hold the Luthier tool slot head jig vertically on the drill press, in order to drill the tuner holes. After making the first pass, I found out that I couldnt just swivel the bottom rail as I liked - it actually needed two sets of mounting holes, for left and right hand positioning. I got that worked out, then hooked her up on the drill press, only to find that the chuck assembly wouldnt drop down far enough ..uuugghhhh, so I went at it with a mallet and chisel till it did - not as pretty as it once was , but its the cats meow as far as functioning goes..
Author:  John K [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Just to chime in on theme. Tesla could write with both hands simultaneously in two different languages. He was fluent in more than two european languages. And, that feude with Edison was to a large extent over DC vs AC power transmission. Edison wanted DC and had wired parts of his city with DC transmisson lines. Tesla championed AC current and though he died a pauper his AC current concept won the day.
Author:  Billy T [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quote]Gates did not buy DOS from IBM. He bought it from someone else and then resold it to IBM, but kept the rights so he could sell it to others too.[/quote]

Got that right! DOS(QDOS) was invented by a guy named Tom Patterson, sold to Microsoft, then worked over, to some degree, to fit IBM's needs(MS-DOS)!

Microsoft stole the GUI concept from Apple which got it from Palo Alto Zerox.
Author:  robertD [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
“Tesla” Now that’s a name I’ve not heard in awhile. Another man with great vision!
I never did understand why Mr. Edison did not see the big picture, when it comes to alternating current!
Perhaps it was purely a business decision, based on logistics and costs.

I’m no expert, but I believe the major reason for AC over DC was that AC can be stepped up or down in voltage,
thus making it possible to deliver electricity over long distances.

Did you know that Edison invented concrete houses, of which some still stand, and are lived in?

But, to stay within the context of this thread, Mr. Edison’s accomplishments are not important.
However, his perspective of failure is! Edison, and so many others like him, through out history,
don’t see failure, as failure! To people like Edison, failure was a way to learn more about what
they were trying to accomplish. Through this perspective, failure was a means to move forward,
not backward. As the quote says, he eliminated things that didn’t work. Which lead him to things
that did work. I’m sure that every successful guitar builder can attest to that, otherwise they
wouldn’t be successful!

Robert
Author:  Jody [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
 I think basicly what edison was saying is ,if  you gain understanding, knowledge, and experience from your endeavors ,  with the correct attitude , value can be found in your work ,even though your desired , or intended results are not reached.  Jody
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=robertD]

Did you know that Edison invented concrete houses, of which some still stand, and are lived in?

Robert[/QUOTE]

He invented a concrete house (type), not concrete houses as such. It was also probably also one of his worst failures, one of the instances where he could not “successfully eliminate materials and combinations which wouldn’t work” however long and hard he tried and no matter how much money he spent on it.
Various types of cement have been used in building since ancient times of course; just think of the giant concrete dome over Pantheon in Rome built in 125 AC, the worlds largest structure for centuries. British engineer John Smeaton made the first modern concrete (hydraulic cement) in 1756. In 1824, another Englishman, Joseph Aspdin invented Portland Cement, which has remained the dominant cement used in concrete production.   Concrete that includes embedded metal (reinforced concrete) concrete was invented (1849) by Joseph Monier.
Author:  robertD [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Arnt,

Of course you’re right. His concrete houses were an utter failure. However, his idea of “pre-fab”
concrete structures lives on!

I think this is a perfect example of what we’re talking about, and gives credence to the saying-

“Circumstances don’t make a man, they reveal him”

As guitar builders, or any other type of builder for that matter, we must deal with circumstances.
How we deal with those circumstances is directly related to the outcome of our endeavors.
If one perceives failure as a stumbling block, then one tends to stumble a lot. However, if one perceives
failure as a stepping stone leading UP the path of accomplishment, then one tends to resolve,
rather than just repair. Its just a matter of perception!

I my mind there is an underlying message in the quote. Never let failure hold you back, and
always stay true to your dreams!

I would venture to say, that most, if not all great guitar builders, have felt this way to some
extent, at some point in their careers.

Robert
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