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Solid vs. Kerfed Linings??
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13957		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Kristopher10 [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:06 am ]
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I am getting to the point of installing my newly fabricated maple linings composed of 3 quartersawn maple strips from HD (it is actually a very nice piece of lumber, perfectly quartered the entire length). I have read some previous threads about using solid linings and was wondering if anyone has used maple. My thinking is that I want to have a solid/rigid/dense area for the soundboard to be glued on to facilitate vibration. Do softer woods inhibit/dampen the sound of the instrument?       
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:15 am ]
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No. the think of the rim like a flange on a diaphragm type valve. The linings are merely the attachment point of the diaphragm to the rim of the guitar body. Just like the sides the lining's and the section of the top that glues to them are for the most part non active. The only ad vantage or disadvantage other than their ability to hold a glue joint in my opinion is weight. Hardwoods add more mass per volume and softer wood add less. That is the same thinking on kerfing linings vs. solid linings. That and ease of shaping.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:16 am ]
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No. think of the rim like a flange on a diaphragm type valve. The linings are merely the attachment point of the diaphragm to the rim of the guitar body. Just like the sides the lining's and the section of the top that glues to them are for the most part non active. The only ad vantage or disadvantage other than their ability to hold a glue joint in my opinion is weight. Hardwoods add more mass per volume and softer wood add less. That is the same thinking on kerfing linings vs. solid linings. That and ease of shaping.
Author:  Steve Walden [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:25 am ]
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Would a shorter solid lining work?  I.e. if the weight per inch of a smaller cross section solid lining is the same as the softwood kerfed would the effect be the same?  The only disadvantage is the lessening of the gluing surface to the sides if the width is held constant.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:32 am ]
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But the length of the joint to the side adds strenth. Remember after dome sanding if you do so, the linings are not but maybe an 1/8" to 1/4 longer than the bindings. They also reinforce the area of the channel for the bindings.
Author:  Kristopher10 [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:41 am ]
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Michael,
Thanks for the input.. very helpful. I wonder about a drum analogy...if the head of the drum were seated on foam, sponge, cat fur, etc. (something not very dense or "musical"), I imagine it would be very dead sounding and not as loud as a normal drum head seated on the wood of the shell itself. Even though the edge of the drum head is mostly inactive, it would still have an effect on the tone/volume. I get the feeling I am now visualizing this correctly . If not, please advise.
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:46 am ]
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I have read that there are lots of classical makers that use solid linings and some steel string builders.  Robert Taylor here uses solid lining and my Maton guitar from Australia has one.  The reason I looked into it is I intend to (maybe???) use a small solid/laminated binding to facilitate compound bends on an experimental guitar I am going to build this winter.

Those who use them seem to justify their use saying they get better sound?? Most make the lining smaller but stronger than kerfed.  I guess this may be a personal and subjective thing.

But... I sure am glad you brought this subject up because I am so new at this building and am anxious to hear the pro's and con's of (solid vs kerfed) opinions from the vast knowledge in the forum.
Author:  Steve Walden [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:49 am ]
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Obviously, the height of the lining would be also dictated by the purfling/binding height.  I was thinking of a triangular solid lining with the top leg that the top glued to being as wide as the kerfed.  But the side leg of the triangle a little shorter.  With the triangle shape and smaller cross section would the weight per unit measure be similar?


 
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:53 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kristopher10] Michael,
Thanks for the input.. very helpful. I wonder about a drum analogy...if the head of the drum were seated on foam, sponge, cat fur, etc. (something not very dense or "musical"), I imagine it would be very dead sounding and not as loud as a normal drum head seated on the wood of the shell itself. Even though the edge of the drum head is mostly inactive, it would still have an effect on the tone/volume. I get the feeling I am now visualizing this correctly . If not, please advise.[/QUOTE]

While I hesitate to get into a better/best discussion, my building style (much of it borrowed from Ervin Somogyi) is to make the rims as absolutely stiff as possible for this very reason.

Therefore, I laminate my sides and use "capped linings" resulting in a rim so stiff that there is 0 flex, and 0 movement. You could literally build outside the mold once the blocks are glued in place.

The thought (and again YMMV) is that the stiff rims reduse dampening at the edges.

So given that would solid linings be "better"? Perhaps but I can tell you for sure there is a big difference in stiffness going from triangle linings to reversed linings, and another big step going to capped linings.

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:54 am ]
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If the drum skin was stretched to the same tension It would not mater what it was setting on as long as its compressed mass could support the skin.

I did not use a drum analogy by the way I used a diaphragm valve, not that it matters.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:55 am ]
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[QUOTE=MichaelP]
[/QUOTE]

For Michael, since there is no Edit Button.

Typing Lessons    Ouch! 
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:56 am ]
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Oh well
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:49 am ]
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Having built a few drums, I can tell you guys that the truth is in the
middle as far as drums go. I built a snare out of 1/2" zebrawood. Super
loud, but very very fast decay. Kits like the one in the pic were about 1/4"
thick. The thinner shell isn't as loud but the drum resonates much
longer. Shells a ply thicker don't resonate as much, and shells that are
even thinner don't have much of anything going well for them.

I wish I could do double sides. No bending, and a stiff rim. I don't have
the ability to thickness though.

Author:  TommyC [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:28 pm ]
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Brock, what are "capped" linings?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:35 pm ]
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Here is a link to Craig Lawrence's.  Here
Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:11 pm ]
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I make my own solid laminated linings, and they definitely make the rims much more rigid. I've used a few different woods, Queensland Maple, Mahogany and Kauri Pine.

I couldn't say if they affect the sound of the guitar since I've never built 2 identical guitars, but they are my personal preference. I think they look really nice. They might not be the fastest way of building a guitar, but I'm not in a race.
Author:  Kristopher10 [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:53 am ]
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I agree with that Allen... Laminating these things is very time consuming , but well worth the effort in my opinion. I am kinda doing a "capped" solid lining with the cap being made from brazilian rosewood. Not for strength, but just for aesthetics. It adds a nice finished look to the inside. What was your experience with Maple? Not the easiest stuff to make linings with, huh?
James, very cool about the drum shells... I didn't know you made those. It looks fantastic
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:29 am ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956]Reverse linings are WAY stiffer than conventional linings and highly recommended if you are not prepared to use double sides or capped linings. On reverse linings since the kerfs are toward and glued to the sides I believe that they are probably very nearly as stiff as capped linings.[/QUOTE]

YMMV, but I noticed a big difference. But again this is also with laminated sides... so it is hard to tell where one ends and the next begins.



Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:29 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kristopher10]I agree with that Allen... Laminating these things is very time consuming , but well worth the effort in my opinion. .......... What was your experience with Maple? Not the easiest stuff to make linings with, huh?

[/QUOTE]

I make mine out of 3 thin strips that I place in the bender. It's not hard to make them, but the maple was a bit hard to work. Cutting the slots for the braces that are inlet was the hardest part. I like that when someone picks up the guitar and has a peek inside I get comments on the solid linings. Just one of those small things that make a hand built guitar stand out from the rest.
Author:  sharp_custom [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:05 am ]
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I was talking with Charles Fox a while ago about his capped linings. He told me that he has now gone to reversed kerfing with much thicker webbing (unkerfed part)than those commercially available. They are also much taller. He says these have the same properties as the capped linings but aren't such a pain to make.

Thanks, Don
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