Official Luthiers Forum!

  can someone explain the reason for zero frets? is it design integration , or flaw?  Jody

Jody, I think that one of the reasons is so that open strings sound the same
as fretted strings.

And it gives you the perfect string height for each string.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I just made my first guitar with a zero fret, and I'll have to agree with Waddy that it gives the absolute perfect string height on every string. I dont know how many more guitars that I will build with a zero fret, but I have to admit that I like it! I used a piece of wide saddle (bone) for the nut as the only purpose it serves is a string spacer anyway. It didnt seem to affect the volume or tone of the guitar at all. It sure does play easy though.

I could see where this would be a real time saver, especially on a 12 string guitar.

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Reguards,

Ken H

The zero fret seems like such a good idea to me as well....
Why don't we see it more often? I associate it with some of the 'European' steel strings that were imported about 40 years ago-perhaps that's what 'tainted' the idea?

Are any 'famous' builders using zero frets?

Cheers
John

I have had acoustics with a zero fret and the thing i saw as a problem was that the open strings did sound just like all the other fretted strings. i think thats alright for classical music and even jazz but i think the different tone and loudness of open strings is the thing that makes rock, country and blues what it is. I love that big loud ringing tone of open chords on an acoustic and even electrics. I though the zero fret open chords sounded a little to dead in my opinion.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars] I'll have to agree with Waddy that it gives the absolute perfect string height [/QUOTE]

I think that was Ron.....

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I don't understand. What is the height of the "Zero" fret? How does the "Zero" fret differ from a nut?

Ray

A zero fret is a normal sized/height fret in the 0 position, or where the nut is in a "regular" instrument. The zero fret is not provided with any means of maintaining the string spacing, and thus only functions to dictate the string height. A nut is positioned between the 0 fret and the tuners at the end of the fretboard to space the strings.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Somewhere I came across the idea of using a slightly oversize (overheight) fret for the zero fret to give the increased clearance that the nut usually provides. Haven't tried any of this yet, though.

John

I read articles against zero fret, at least for classicals, for the following reason. Analogous to compensation at the bridge by extending the bridge a bit further from the calculated position, there is a way to provide special compensation at the nut by adjusting the height of the strings differently for each string. You cannot do that with a zero fret. I believe that one article was in the Journal of the Guild of American Luthiers by R. E. Brune. I personally do not have a good enough ear to hear the difference, nor do I have the skill to execute the fine adjustment.

I have seen some classicals in stores with zero frets, and all were set higher than the other frets, thus you would best set the zero fret after the others are dressed.

Think of a zero fret as the first fret above a capo. No additional height is required, and the string will be the ideal height for the guitar, at least at the headstock end. I can't imagine any negative effect on the sound of the guitar.

Al

I think part of the extra height on the zero fret may have to do with avoiding back buzz if the neck gets ever so slightly out of adjustment, of if the zero fret gets indented from play. Many of us tend to play a lot in the first position and to dent those frets first.

I've got a zero fret Alvarez Yairi that I've played hard for 35 years and it doesn't show any wear on the zero fret.

If you were worried about the wear, you could use a stainless fret at zero.

The first one I built, I used a larger zero fret, but on the next four, I used regular wire. Works perfectly. Been strumming my first one for two years and I plan to keep using a zero fret, except on the banjo I'm getting ready to build.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I was going to ask the same question.

Personally, I do not prefer the sound of the open strings, and find the fact that they sound different to be very distracting from a player's point of view. I think I'll try one next

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I just looked at a brief note on Frank Ford's web site. He does point out one flaw. Since as you tune the instrument, the string is dragged across a fret (which is harder than bone) the string windings can be caused to fray.

Thanks Frank Ford!

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I guess that's possible, but I've never seen it happen.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie]

Are any 'famous' builders using zero frets?

Cheers
John[/QUOTE]

Steve Klein uses/used a zero fret on his guitars.

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie]Are any 'famous' builders using zero frets?[/QUOTE]



Harvey Leach uses them.  They work justfine!



Standard fret, zero position, nothing fancy, just good guitar work.

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-donh-

Everything is a tone control!

[QUOTE=donh] [QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie]Are any 'famous' builders using zero frets?[/QUOTE]

Harvey Leach uses them.  They work justfine!

Standard fret, zero position, nothing fancy, just good guitar work.

[/QUOTE]

Joe Veillette also uses them.

Jimmy Caldwell on the forum here uses them and you don't get much better guitars than Jimmy's.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie]
Are any 'famous' builders using zero frets?

Cheers
John[/QUOTE]

Ron Wisdom..........Well he's famous to me

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Jody,

I have worked on several. From that experience decided that I didn't want to use a Zero fret system. Why? because:

1) I believe it interfers with some of the energy transfer into the neck. Not the zero fret itself, but the still present nut that acts as a string guide. I think most people who use ZF don't consider the effect of having the nut hug the strings behind it. Alone without a nut it would probably be more efficient...but you must still use the nut and that is where I think it kills some of the energy. too many points of contact.

2) Because the fret can vary in height and width, you don't have a medium by which all strings come off the very edge like you do with a properly back filed nut. Instead you have a rounded top which strings of differing dimension are rolling over. It would also make installing the Buzz Feiten Tuning System more difficult as you don't have that exact measurement of where the string is coming off of the nut. but rather a string comming off a fret somewhere between this and that distance. I put BFTS on all my guitars.

3) To me it just seems like a "cheaper" "quicky" way to go. Fast setup/manufacture. You see the ZF on almost every cheapo brand guitar. We all know the reason for that...it's quick, cheap, and you don't need a skilled laborer to make a proper nut. All you need is some one to pound in a metal fret and slot whatever is behind it that resembles a nut.

My points above can be argued either way as can many things in lutherie, but they are the reasons why I don't use it or like it. Now I know there are well known, well respected, luthiers that do utilize the ZF and I am sure they take the time to do it right. I guess for me it's just something that just reminds me of all those bad guitars I tried to play as a kid. I think a lot of people probably still feel that way...rightly or wrongly...

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I not only disagree with everything you said, Dave, I find it offensive to those of us who choose to use a zero fret.   There are many fine guitars using them, and some very expensive basses. I can make a nut as fine as most of the folks here, I just choose to use a zf because I like it.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Thanks for your opinions Dave, I'm surprised we're not seeing more comments on why not to do it - after all it's not very common.

I think I like the idea though so I'm trying one out on my next build to see.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."