I have an opportunity to buy a roto shaper like Taylor uses for dirt cheap, but I wonder if it's worth the hassle. Thoughts?
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| tough tool purchase decision.. http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13806 |
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| Author: | John Watkins [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:03 am ] |
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I have an opportunity to buy a roto shaper like Taylor uses for dirt cheap, but I wonder if it's worth the hassle. Thoughts? Here it is...
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| Author: | Ricardo [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:16 am ] |
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Hesh, that definitely would get you kicked out of your condo! 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:22 am ] |
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Sometimes an opportunity to do something is really an opportunity to not do something and do something different... Will it fit in your basement? Probably not. In your garage? Not that and the car too. (Honey, I got us a new bed!) So where does it go? An outbuilding? Don't have one? Then you have to rent space to put it somewhere. Then you have to set it up, buy the cutters specific to your needs, adjust it, tweak it, maintain it, keep the cutters sharp, power it, etc etc. Oh...and justify all of that. If you rent a space for it, then you'd have to move your whole operation. And, you can't easily stay on top of two cnc's and a rotary shaper too, so you might have to hire Paul Woolson to work part time to help you with it. I guess that's the down side (not Paul, the other stuff) The up side is you can do things with it that only a tool like that can do. But can it do things your CNC can't? Or can it do them better? Is the demand there for those goods, or could having it help to open a new market or even create a new market? There's a whole lot of big questions to be answered. Cheap isn't always cheap. Sometimes it's expensive, sometimes it's dirt cheap. Good luck with your decision, and whichever way you go, I hope it works out well for you. |
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| Author: | LuthierSupplier [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:23 am ] |
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John, What is it used for? Maybe that would help us help you decide. If all you can do is one operation, then I'd say no. Tracy |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:37 am ] |
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This might help explain what it is. Roto Shaper |
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| Author: | KenH [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:38 am ] |
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If you were cutting out guitar tops and backs all day, I could see where you could use one. Somehow I kind of doubt that this is the case though. I dont have any other clue what you would use one for in the guitar building trade. Give us a hint as to what you want to do with it? |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:02 am ] |
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Let me guess: they won't deliver. |
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| Author: | John Watkins [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:26 am ] |
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Actually, they do deliver and the space isn't a problem. It'll do anything that two router tables would do, but with almost unlimited power and automated feed. I believe this one was used to make decorative rails and stiles plus raised panels for period furniture reproductions. In my shop it would do the same thing that Taylor uses it for. It could also cut truss rod and cf cavities all in one pass. It could easily do a dozen per minute in that use. It could radius fingerboards as well, milling them with one head and sanding them with the other. |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:32 am ] |
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Man John! This looks like a perfect tool for you! That guy in the Tayor video said he can do 700 necks per eight hour shift. I think id get it. |
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| Author: | burbank [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:34 am ] |
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Seems like an industrial machine like that one would provide relatively high volume output, but would come with a high dollar/time committment. And purchasing the machine might just be the tip of the iceberg. The real costs come as Don described, after the purchase, with having a place for it, power, tooling, the proper floor, programming, and an operator. If you need the volume, go for it, because it will run circles around a conventional CNC in terms of production output. To make it really pay for itself and then some, you might need a part- or full-time operator. Would that be you? Then there's the maintenance, tweaking, etc. Every machine I've seen in a production environment cost far more to taylor for its intended purposes (when you add up materials, labor, tooling design and programming time, plus materials) than the initial cost of the machine itself. This case could be an exception though if it's cheap enough. I'd try to get in touch with Bob Taylor. He might give you some insight into the overhead for setting up and running such an animal. More questions than answers, eh? Good luck, let us know what happens. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:41 am ] |
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Hey John, if it is cheap, you have the space and you see value.....call the delivery guys and get it there! If you can see SOME use for it now just think of the possibilities later. You are not getting any less busy! Shane |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:50 am ] |
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If space isn't an issue that's one major hurdle moved out of the way. If you really feel it can handle that volume of work, and can help you pump necks and things out faster, then maybe it's not such a bad investment. Can I assume it comes with any tooling? I mean bits, all the spindles are working, sanding head, etc.? If so, and there's minimal amounts of work to put it into operation, (not counting your programing time) then it may be a good opportunity for you. It will no doubt suck up a lot of electricity, but if you can run it efficiently, and have enough clients to sell necks & such to, then that could be a good thing. Just make sure you're not getting in over your head. |
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| Author: | Blain [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:58 am ] |
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Do you think if you don't get it, that a year from now when the offer isn't on the table, you'll wish you did? Sometimes we don't need certain tools, but they're nice to have. I'd say if you would like to have it and you have the space to keep it, and if you might regret not geting it, then I'd get it. You can always turn around and sell it if you decide you don't want it (and might even get a little profit depending on how good the deal is). |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:06 am ] |
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Dude ... you are going to kick yourself later if you don't get that. If you could rig it up like Taylor has theirs that could really put you in the cat bird seat to become a major supplier of necks -- not only to luthiers, but potentially to small factories who don't have or can't afford equipment like this. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:14 am ] |
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Yeah...that's beginning to be my impression too. John, you're savvy enough and creative enough to make that thing work for you. If the price is right, maybe this is the tool that can and will propel your business to a higher level. It certainly is a versatile tool...with a lot of potential. |
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| Author: | Steve Walden [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:15 am ] |
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Pat Foster (Burbank) said: "Every machine I've seen in a production environment cost far more to taylor for ...." Was there a pun intended? Even if all you do is store it for now get it. I echo all the 'go get its' above. I think you will only regret not getting it. Steve |
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| Author: | burbank [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:32 am ] |
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[QUOTE=WaldenWorx] Pat Foster (Burbank) said: "Every machine I've seen in a production environment cost far more to taylor for ...." Was there a pun intended? Not intended. I completely missed that.Sheesh! 
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:40 am ] |
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If it can get up up and selling neck again I am all for it  I sure miss your neck. By the way I never said but the maple neck was great 
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:46 am ] |
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I have a Wagner Safety Planer I'll sell you instead. I was gonna save it for the Swap Meet, but since you got money burning a hole in your pocket! Dirt Cheap! |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:00 am ] |
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John, Only someone with a tool like this can give advice as to what a luthier can do with it. Of course, it's a great deal. Do you really want it? "Much work is done with the power of the Ox. Where no ox is, the stall is clean." |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:13 am ] |
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"If you see the flame, the meal is already cooked." - Oma Desala |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:12 am ] |
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Man, I thought Oma was a Vegitarian, I am disillusioned.
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:17 am ] |
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Another line of thinking....does it sound like fun to you? Nothing worse than something that makes great sense for the "business" but makes you miserable in the process. On the other hand, something that is a real pleasure and learning experience but isn't the most profitable may still be worth it. Along with the business questions, I'd be asking myself things like: Do I like setting up complex and finicky machines? (I'm guessing yes, based on the business you're in!). Do I have time without sacrificing other things I'd rather do. Would I enjoy doing huge runs of parts? Selling huge runs of parts?
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