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Top braces critique
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13706		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  RWGoodman [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:47 pm ]
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This is my first post here and I wanted to say Hi and thank everyone for the great help and inspiration that I have gotten from the forum. Im building my first from an LMI kit and its going better than I would have expected. Its a cocobolo dread with a bearclaw sitka top.




In an effort to protect the soundboard from my chisel (I'm new to chiselling) I have done a lot of the shaping of the braces before I glue them. I thought I would get some opinions on them as I really have no idea and if they seem too thin in places or have some other issues , I could redo them. I have a lot of great brace wood stock as well as a great lutz top for my next one from Shane. The photo doesnt include the soundhole braces or the upper transverse graft.


The top is about 1.10-1.15.



Thanks for any advice,


Warren
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:56 pm ]
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Hi Warren,

Welcome to the OLF. What part of Canada are you located in?

That looks like a great start for a first. I'm sure if you glued it down (don't forget the bridge plate) that it would come out sounding like a guitar.

It's very hard to make to many comments by just a visual on bracing. Many of us like to flex the top to see how stiff it is when we compare it to other tops and once the braces are on, we like to tap the system to see what it sounds like. Some like it to sound like a tight ping, kind of like a glass which is almost full of water, some like it to "thud" a bit more and sustain kind of like a glass with little water in it.

But taking a look at what you have there, you will certainly produce something that sounds like a guitar should. But what for certain it will sound like is much to subjective and impossible to tell from just looking at a picture.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress, we kind of like that around here.

Again, welcome. Don't be afraid to ask questions when you have them.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:30 pm ]
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Welcome to the OLF, Warren.  I'll let the experts help in the critique area.  I'm on my first too.
Author:  BlackHeart [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:25 pm ]
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X braces are scalloped back quite a bit on lower bout.


 I did the same mistake,carving too much first, Id glue on the rough braces first, but you need pencil marks to show where they will go.


 


I just carved a top,and will be doing another this weekend.


You have to flex the top and listen to it as you carve.


 
Author:  BlackHeart [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:37 pm ]
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Forgot to mention, I also practiced carved a few braces beforehand, to figure out what was going on with them. The top I did was throw away mess up, and its pretty ugly carving job, but it has a 'good tap tone', I think. It goes boooonnnnnnnnngggggg as opposed to thuuuunnnkkk before carving. I dont know if thats good or not.I will re-adjust my second top from what I did with the first, stiffness in lower bout, etc.... and hope for the best, sides go on  after this top is done!
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:33 pm ]
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Warren,

Looks like a great start. You can carve your braces more once they are glued on. I place a layer or two of purple masking tape (it is fairly thick and low tack, I get it at Canadian Tire) along side the braces I am carving, that way if the chisel slips, it hits the tape and all is fine. Once you start tuning things up you will want the tape off and then you are do lighter work and you will need to be cautious. Keep it up and Welcome...Officially, to the OLF!! Now that you are posting that is!

Shane
Author:  RWGoodman [ Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:52 pm ]
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Thanks for the advice. I think I'll go ahead and glue them up. This is my third try with the x-braces after a too slow hot hide glue attempt and a second titebond glue up that I planed and sanded off as I had a small gap in the x-brace joint which I later learned (after perusing the forum) wasnt acceptable. Im going to try the HHG again as clean up was very easy and everyone here seems to favour it.


I'll get some purple masking tape and see if I can get a "booooonnnnngggg".


Warren


 
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:15 am ]
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Welcome, Warren. I also question the practice of scalloping before gluing to the top plate...something to consider on #2.

A few observations:

1) The peaks on the tone bars seem way too close to the lower bout's edge. I'd make new ones and scallop according to how the top wants to vocalize. Personally, I would like to see a more gentle taper as it becomes thinned out to nothing before reaching the edge.

2) After gluing down the x-brace, place a top cap at the junction to lock it in and make it stiffer.

3) During voicing, you should be able to thin out the areas of the tone bars and finger braces where they touch the x-brace.

4) Don't forget one of the most important braces of ass...the bridge plate! What are you planning to use?

5) If you're planning to use HHG, try heating up the gluing surfaces before applying the glue. It will give you a lot more open time. I actually microwave the x brace assembly for about 15 seconds....others place it on a warming plate.

Good luck and keep asking!

Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:23 am ]
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...EDIT...

A few more things...

1) what is the radius of the x brace gluing surface?

2) are you using a radiused dish...I would seriously recommend gluing up in a dish or some other curved setup so that you can maintain the proper curvature.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:18 am ]
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Warren, another good option from Hide Glue is Fish Glue. Available from Lee Valley. Nearly the same properties but WAY more open time to adjust things. Clean up may be a bit more of a chore though.

Shane
Author:  BlackHeart [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:34 am ]
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I glue one X brace at a time? just make sure its the bottom one!


For using HHG, get a small squeeze bottle. Ive been using a brush with good luck, and just heat it in hot water and wipe off, but a squeeze bottle will make it more controllable and time effective. 
Author:  RWGoodman [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:54 am ]
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Hesh, I used a micro plane in my drill press to do most of the shaping as well as to rough in the radius on the x-braces before sanding in a 30' radius dish.


I have a rosewood bridgeplate yet to be cut.


JJ, thanks for the advice. I didnt place the tone bars very accurately in the photo I posted. The top is still quite oversized as well so I have posted a photo with a line showing where the sides meet the top. I think I'll make another set as I dont have much thickness to work with and I am sure it will a good learning experience to hear how the tone changes with shaping.


Shane, I have been reading the recent posts on fish glue and plan to get some my next trip to Lee Valley. I think I will try the hide glue again using Hesh's advice about another set of hands because the clean up was very easy even with the mess I made of it.



Thanks again


Warren


 
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:26 pm ]
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Yeah, but they are really cool.  They cut like crazy, and last waaaaaay longer than sandpaper.  I have some for my ROS too.
Author:  RWGoodman [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:50 pm ]
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Blackheart that might be a good idea about gluing one x-brace at a time. I have a squeeze bottle that seems to work well and found a rival hot pot in the garage with a temp dial. Found 2 actually. I should go out there and see if there is a thickness sander somewhere. Probably not.


Warren
Author:  PDeWitt [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:36 pm ]
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Warren,

I am going to get my soundboard for my first guitar from LMI as well. Did
they inlay that abalone for your rosette for you?!?!? If so, that's prbably the
one that I will have them do too; it looks great.

Thanks for the info!
Author:  RWGoodman [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:26 pm ]
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Thanks Peter. As far as I could tell LMI only cuts a rosette channel that fits the rosettes listed in the kits. The rosette I did was a simple one of black/white/black fiber and 3 pieces of their widest curved paua abalone abalam. I used LMI's .055 end mill in a dremel and can see a little tearout if I look very closely. Perhaps I went a little too fast but Im really quite pleased with it.


Warren
Author:  PDeWitt [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:55 pm ]
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Thanks Warren,

Do I understand you correcty that you cut them all yourself?

P.S. I too think it looks great!
Author:  RWGoodman [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:55 pm ]
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Yes I cut them all myself. I had LMI do quite a few things that I thought would be difficult for someone of my experience such as bending the cocobolo sides, thicknessing the soundboard and carving the neck. I really wanted an abalone rosette and I didnt read anywhere that they cut the channel to suit. I guess you could contact them to see if they do custom work like that, I never did talk to them. It didnt seem too difficult to do myself but I certainly wasnt in my comfort zone. I dont know if this is common but it looked like I messed up big time until I levelled everything out.


Warren
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:09 pm ]
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Hey Warren, where in Canada are you???
Author:  RWGoodman [ Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:25 pm ]
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Hi Rod. Sorry I didnt answer you before. North Vancouver.


Warren
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