Oh, sorry!
Great Tutorial Todd!
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| Side Tapes Using Hide Glue http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13219 |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:41 am ] |
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When I tested side tapes for strength, I found that HHG was significantly better than Titebond. I would also question the wisdom of not shellacing Titebonded tapes: I'd think that exposure to air would hurt any glue in the long run. I do it pretty much the way you show it, except I don't use the blue tape. I use a narrower glue brush, and with care can keep the glue from going all over the place. One of the beauties of using HHG in fact is that you don't have to handle the tapes with glue on them at all. With the Titebond I found I had to dampen the tapes, and then work glue in with my fingers, to get them really saturated. It was messy and time consuming. With the hide glue you paint a line of glue on the side, lay a dry tape on, and then paint on some more glue. You dab off the excess with a paper towel or rag, and never have to touch anything hot or wet with your hands at all. Stonger, easier, neater and quicker; what's not to like about doing this job with HHG? |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:01 am ] |
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Thanks for posting this tutorial Todd! I didn't use tape for this first build but it sounds like it is a smart thing to do. I'll have to file this away (along with a HHG tutorial... seeing how I have never touched the stuff) for later use. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:21 pm ] |
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That's exactly the way I do it too Todd. And like you and Alan I only use HHG, for the reasons Alan gives. I have a golden rule with my building, always use a collogen glue if it's possible. Colin |
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| Author: | robertD [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:45 pm ] |
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Todd, Thanks for that exceptionally detailed tutorial! I’ve seen quite a bit done here at the OLF on building guitars, but, I’ve not ever seen that. OK, gotta ask sort of a dumb question. Is the “tape” used in place of side braces? Robert |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:34 pm ] |
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As long as we're debating the pros of HHG against the rest of the glues I feel compelled to join in. Here's my take on what's been said and not said: ...HHG is the only glue I've used where as it dries/sets up it actually draws the glued pieces together. In some cases one could probably even get by without clamping. ...The need for shellac is not to protect it from "bio-attack" but instead to protect it from oxidation...something that all polymers would be subject to. ...While I'm sure that Titebond does the job...lots of builders better than I use it. Nevertheless, I personally would rather use a material (HHG) that dries as hard as glass and resonates sound as opposed to a material which contains vinyl groups and cures to a much softer (sound absorbing) consistency. It's the sum total of all the "little things" that can make a difference. HHG is just another one of the incremental materials that should be included in Best Practices IMO. BTW, Todd...this is a great tutorial. Thanks for posting |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:21 am ] |
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Hey folks...for those of you that are using side tape, what material is it made of? I cruised by a store yesterday and saw only pure polyester. Thanks. |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:31 am ] |
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Dope alert: Nevermind, I found the answer in the archives. Thanks anyway. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:42 am ] |
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I'm curious, are classical builders using tape too? Or, does that go against the grain of tradition? |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:42 am ] |
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Oh, sorry! Great Tutorial Todd! |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:45 am ] |
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Many thanks Todd....your tutorial is stored and saved for future reference! |
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| Author: | robertD [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:18 am ] |
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Todd, thanks for elaborating a little more on this issue! This has been a great tutorial! I’m sold on tape now! I must admit though, I will probably use good old white glue, simply because, I’ve already got it in my shop. Thriftiness, and all that, you know! If I may ask, what is the best type of clothe to use with good old white glue? I was thinking cotton? Robert |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:58 am ] |
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The old boys, Strad & Co., used linen twill weave tapes: the cloth is made as a narrow strip, so there is not a cut edge to unravel. It's possible to get cotton twill tape these days, but I have not seen any linen. I think the linen would be stronger. The fabric stores sell 100% polyester twill tapes, but I don't think that would glue well. Anyway, sometimes things react in funny ways when you glue them, and we already know that linen works. I tried some nylon twill tapes as part of my test, and the tapes themselves were much stronger than the cotton-poly. However, neither Titebond or HHG would stick very well to the nylon, and they tended to peel off the wood before the tape broke. Once the glue line let go, so did the wood. I originally used cotton-poly bias tape for two reasons: 1) I could get it. 2) I figured the cotton in the blend would absorb the glue better than pure polyester. So far so good. I'm not saying that's the best possible solution, but it does double the amount of force it takes to crack the wood, so that's something. Some folks on another list recently were talking about Tyvek as a repair patch. They say it's much better than linen or parchment. |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:48 am ] |
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...but Mocha clashes with my label! 
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| Author: | robertD [ Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:43 pm ] |
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Hi Alan, Are you talking about “Tyvek” by DuPont? Example; House Wrap? If so, I get enough scraps left over from every house I build, that would probably do 100 guitars. There are other Tyvek products too, but I’m not sure how different they are from each other. Have you ever seen it applied? I suppose, I could do a test, I’ve got some laying around my shed somewhere. Todd, thanks for the info, I’ll check out Wal-Mart for sure! Robert |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:08 am ] |
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Robert...While the strength would be good, I doubt that Tyvek would adhere to any of our glues. I believe the active polymer is polyethylene...an abhesive surface. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:04 am ] |
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At the risk of being redundant: Are Classical builders using tape to reinforce sides? |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:35 am ] |
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I use tapes on my classicals. Sorry to drop the ball. The folks on the list were talking about getting the Tyvek from the post office: it's used for padded mailers or some such. You'll know it when you see it. All of these guys use HHG, and they say it works well. It's possible to treat all osrt sof things to make them stick better; witness coated glass fibers. I've never tried it, myself. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:11 am ] |
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Thanks, Alan. I was thinking that it might be a good thing with certain woods. My first is Zebrawood, and that would seem to be a prime suspect for tape supports to prevent splitting. |
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| Author: | fryovanni [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:01 am ] |
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Todd, That is a wonderful tutorial. Clean, great pics, perfect details. Big thanks!
Peace,Rich |
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