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http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13130		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:09 pm ]
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I just received the pack containing my first larger WA, after a long wait due to the dumb PO that didnt notify me for a whole week, anyway, I'm just waay happy and thought about posting pics. I know it's nothing special for most of you guys, but anyway:

1. sweeeeeet smelling spanish cedar neck and heel blank, an impressive ebony FB (quite uniform color, very dark grey with steel-like blue reflection), some purplish IR bridges, bone blanks, a brown IR headplate, some spruce bars and in the upper corner cypress lining blanks.  These are 800x20x20mm and I think they could be turned into back bracing too, not just dentellones (any suggestions?)



Next, Italian spruce, special quality.  The grain is evenly spaced, but I don't see any silking. The tap tone sounds low in pitch and not that ringy (3.5mm thickness)



A second cheaper top. This one has the grain count all over the place, but there is silking in the tight area.  It also rings a lot better, and the tap tone sounds a lot higher than the other set (to my bad ears)



I am going to do some deflection testing to compare these two.

In the end, some cypress zoot, with a shellac wipe:
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:07 am ]
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Rivolta, I take it? (looking at the stack of bracewood...). The first top has silking, visible all along the bottom of the picture. It's about the shimmer, not necessarily the ray lines running across the top.

Remember the grades are based on aesthetics rather than tap, and unless you ask for a specific feature set (ie, light and stiff, stiffness more important than weight, weight more important than stiffness) you'll likely get whatever top looks good from on top of the pile. Main reason I prefer to go spend time at Rivolta sifting through their piles personally :)
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:12 am ]
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yes Rivolta :)  That bracewood is quite nice.  I cut a test brace already and compared to the Engelmann test braces I had here and it is much much stiffer.

The higher grade top (one that has a lower pitch tap tone) is seriously floppier across the grain than the second top.

Along the grain, they are pretty much the same.

Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:31 am ]
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Thanks.  Shane should be sending me a couple lutzii these days so I will have a real stash soon :)

I'll have to take back what I said, the higher grade one does have a ring to it, just that it is lower in pitch. The other is very tight and coupled with its better crossgrain stiffness, i imagine I will take it thinner, or maybe not use a bridge pad.  

I'll try to post an mp3 with the tap sounds.

Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:36 am ]
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Tap tones

There are 4 groups, first the master grade halves and then the AAA halves.  I should add that the master is half inch wider.

Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:49 am ]
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Good score, Alex.  I know you are glad to have some new wood in house for building.  The tap tone clip was interesting, too.
Author:  KenH [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:37 am ]
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Interesting tap tone file. You can obviously tell there is a lower and a higher tone and 2 different pieces of wood.


great score on the zoot!
Author:  bolix [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:39 am ]
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Mattia!

I live 100km from Rivolta...

next time you'll spend time searching the right top.. make me a call..

i'd like to have a coffee together!
Author:  jfrench [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:29 am ]
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Alex,

Nothing wrong with the spacing of the second top.. I've had great luck in my guitars with tops that vary toward wider grain at the edges. What are you going to be doing with the Cypress?

Alex or Mattia (or anyone else who has experience with it) - what do you think of Rivolta's Cypress?
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:50 am ]
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My opinion must not matter since it is the first time i ever touch cypress, but I guess it is nice wood. It feels dry and sound. And smells heavenly :)   The back is second quality, costed 16 euro, and the sides are first quality, 29 euro. I love the stripes and color variation.  I think I would consider a more expensive back as looking too plain. 

This is going to be for a classical, the first i build from scratch. I asked them to thickness the boards to 2.5mm.  Not sure what should I aim as final thickness. I'll probably follow my instinct. I also have enough cypress sticks to make the back braces and the dents and kerfs. Would that be a bad ideea ?

Now regarding the two tops, I am going to use the tight ringing AAA first. I will wait a while though so it gets used to the air here, I also want to compare it to the Lutz, also building a solera and ordering some planes...the works. 

I guess that the other top needs a bracing designed to increase the across the grain stiffness. Maybe a thicker bridge plate, taller fans, or maybe a bouchet style pattern ? I should probably put it aside for a long while till I build more and get experience.



Author:  jfrench [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:29 am ]
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Alex - I like the looks of that Cypress. Cypress makes a really great classical. When I make one I am using about 2.5mm thickness for the back and 1.7 for the sides.

Regarding the other top - I wouldn't rethink my bracing scheme based on having wider grain toward the edges. If this is your first attempt at a classical you're going to be much more likely to overbuild it then underbuild it.

All the good old Spanish guitars are very lightly built - in many cases probably quite a bit lighter then you'd be comfortable trying, and many are still around.

What plans will you be using for the guitar?

Cyress should make nice linings. I would opt for Spanish Cedar or Spruce for the back braces though.


Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:39 am ]
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Thanks for the thickness!

Actually, I was thinking I should put aside the evenly spaced master grade top. It is much floppier across the grain.

The AAA/variable spacing top is stiff across the grain.

They are equally stiff along the grain.

I will use a Torres or Romanillos plan.

Author:  Mattia Valente [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:54 am ]
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Bolix: I live in Amsterdam, but I pass through/past Rivolta once or twice a year (done that already this year, though!), so I time things carefully. Probably passed not far from your place on the drives up and down, I'll wager!

Joshua: can't comment on their Cypress, as I've never ordered any. Yet.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:11 pm ]
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I have thinned the AAA top from 3.5mm to 3, and jointed it. It now measures 46x39cm. 
The tap pitch went lower a good deal, and it produces some very strong bass notes. They rattle the house nicely on a pair of good loudspeakers.

tap sample
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:01 am ]
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Alex,

Do you play your "Tap Tone" Recordings in the background while you work on your guitar?  Total Sonic Immersion!

Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:35 am ]
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Nah, I think I would go nuts soon :d  I do play some Julian Bream or David Russell though. Part of my secret spruce-opening-up-methodology. 
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:40 am ]
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It probably would increase the consumption of aspirin considerably!  I do like hearing them though.  How are you recording?
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:25 am ]
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I hold the wood with one hand between thumb and index and knock strongly with the curled index of the other in several places of the opposite bout. I record with the same setup, gain and distance I record my playing - the mic is a Samson USB condenser.

I'll be recording taps at every step of the construction and do the same with the next tops I'll work, and I hope it will be a valuable info in the future.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:33 am ]
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The mic sounds like it is a pretty clean recording mike.  What distance do you use?  I assume you are recording dead flat.
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