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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:01 am 
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Koa
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I'm trying to choose a bit darker tone for this next build than Ovangkol. Something a little warmer and deeper. Anyone have suggestions on what might fit that bill?
EIR, Cocobolo, Bloodwood, Bubinga, Black Limba, Mahogany?
Thanks in advance.
-j.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:11 am 
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I would look at the top - cedar and redwood.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:32 am 
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Koa
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I'm planning on using one of my Lutz spruce tops and voicing it a bit differently, but was hoping to get some deeper resonance with a different back and sides.
-j.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:46 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Ditto....look towards the topwood.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:51 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'd add that rich, deep and warm can certainly be had from spruce braced right, but often not right off the bat; takes a while for the guitars to break in, definitely spruce ones.

Rosewoods and rosewood-alikes (like Ovangkol) do have a rich, complex sound to my ear, but also quite a bit of sparkle. As a general rule.

Another big factor: body shape and size. Pick the one that suits your idea of that described tone best. For me, that would be a grand auditorium (dred dimensions, tighter waist).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:20 pm 
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Koa
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Mattia, I'm using the GA as the base model and pushing the waist out about 1/8". I finally have my top bracing to where I like it and I like the response I'm getting with it, so I want to continue to use it and experiment with the backs and sides. At least for a few more guitars.
I know the top and top bracing make a huge, if not the most important part of the tone and sound, but are you guys saying that the woods for the backs and sides won't make a difference in the tone?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:42 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'm saying they will, but if you say 'rich and deep', I think Rosewoods. And Ovangkol's not far off, really. I feel the back/sides certainly colour the tone, but shape is of primary importance (a dred sounds like a dred, a parlour like a parlour, largely) along with top wood, and back/sides add a little extra dimension to the whole.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:56 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Generally speaking... open your x brace up a bit.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:12 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Mahogany or Black Limba would help, butthe main focus should be your soundboard.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:54 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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What are you doing with the back? I've often found that the quickest way to get a richer bass tone is to 'tune' the back so that it works with the top better. This can be done after the guitar is together if you can get in and shave back braces. Any back bracing scheme will work, but some work better than others. The big advantage of this is that you don't mess up the top, which seems to be where a llot of that high end 'sparkle' come from.

If you think you can get away with thinning the top a bit, taking off material from the bridge back will often enhance the bass. You can get surprisingly thin at the tailblock if you're careful. Just don't think it in front of the bridge!

Making the body a bit deeper can give a 'fuller' and 'rounder' bass tone. It doesn't so much drop the low 'main air' pitch as it does 'spread it out' a bit. You have to be careful: too deep can make it 'muddy'.

Moving the soundhole a little way toward the neck end, say 3/8"-1/2", can drop the low air resonant pitch. Making the hole smaller will do the same, but also cut the power, and maybe effect the very high end as well. You must not, of course, eliminate those high frets that everybody needs so much.

There are a few other things that _might_ work on some guitars, and maybe not others. All of these 'bass enhancement' techniques work a little differently, and have other effects as well. It's best not to do too much of any one thing, but rather a bit of this and a touch of that.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:06 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I have seen some people use laminated x braces for their tops, which they say improves bass response. One builder I know runs his bandsaw blade through the bass side only of the lower x brace leg and then glues in a piece of hardwood (creating a laminate only on the bass side).


Personally, I think this is some more of counting leprechuans, but it seems to be a somewhat popular thing to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:27 pm 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] What are you doing with the back? I've often found that the quickest way to get a richer bass tone is to 'tune' the back so that it works with the top better. This can be done after the guitar is together if you can get in and shave back braces. Any back bracing scheme will work, but some work better than others. The big advantage of this is that you don't mess up the top, which seems to be where a llot of that high end 'sparkle' come from.

If you think you can get away with thinning the top a bit, taking off material from the bridge back will often enhance the bass. You can get surprisingly thin at the tailblock if you're careful. Just don't think it in front of the bridge!

Making the body a bit deeper can give a 'fuller' and 'rounder' bass tone. It doesn't so much drop the low 'main air' pitch as it does 'spread it out' a bit. You have to be careful: too deep can make it 'muddy'.

Moving the soundhole a little way toward the neck end, say 3/8"-1/2", can drop the low air resonant pitch. Making the hole smaller will do the same, but also cut the power, and maybe effect the very high end as well. You must not, of course, eliminate those high frets that everybody needs so much.

There are a few other things that _might_ work on some guitars, and maybe not others. All of these 'bass enhancement' techniques work a little differently, and have other effects as well. It's best not to do too much of any one thing, but rather a bit of this and a touch of that. [/QUOTE]


Awesome, friggin' awesome. What great tips. Thank you Sir. You are a pro.   

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:32 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hesh asked:
"Al by tuning the back do you mean to reduce the stiffness of the back braces specifically in the lower bout area?"

Like Humpty Dumpty, I only meant what I said. ;)

If you can get the 'main back' tap tone to be fairly close in pitch to the 'main top' tone the two will couple more strongly. The back then becomes an actor in the 'bass reflex couple' that is making most of the sound in the low range. Normally, this will drop the pitch of the 'main air' resonance slightly, but, more importantly, it will give you more power in the low end, putting a floor under the sound, so to speak.

How you tune the back will depend on how it's working in the first place. Most people seem to think of the back primarily as a reflector, and make it as stiff as they can within reason. There is a lot of merit in that image: the 'main back' resonant mode seems to be the only one that can contibute directly to the output of the guitar, and above that you probably do want the back to be as unresponsive as possible in some respects. So, as often happens, we're on the throes of a dilema here: we want a back that can move at a low frequency and not at high frequencies, and that's hard to do.

Normally it is the lower bout braces that are too stiff, and reducing the height of those will generally be the quickest way to drop the 'main back' pitch. The low, wide braces that Martin uses on many of their instruments do, indeed, add less stiffness and more mass than they could, and tend to drop that back pitch relative to what it would be if they were stood up. It may happen that on a guitar with that sort of bracing the back waist bar will be the one that most needs to be trimmed. My feeling at the moment (and this could change with new data at any time) is that scalloping the back braces will do the most good. That said, I often end up with 'tapered' back braces. Go figure.

As far as I can tell, the 'best' pitch for the 'main back' mode would be about a semitone higher than the 'main top' tap tone. You can find these (cloes enough) by blocking the soundhole and taping on the plates. Tap the top at the bridge, and try the back somewhere around the center of the lower bout, or maybe a bit higher. If the pitch seperation between the top and back modes is too much (say, a third or more) they won't work together as strongly. If they are too close (much less than a semitone) they can couple too strongly and cause a 'wolf' of sorts. Since the top tends to 'play down' in pitch, it's safer to have the back pitch higher rather than lower.

This is one of those things I picked up from Fred Dickens many moons ago. The first time I tried it out was when a local player brought by a pair of guitars that had been made by another builder. One had great bass and 'flat' trebles, the other had nice trebles and a 'thin' bass. The player wanted be to effect a transplant of sorts: either improve the trebles of one or the bass of the other, and the luthier had been unable to do so.

I checked out the top and back modes of both. It turned out that the one that had the good bass had about a semitone of seperation on the main modes, while the other had a stiffer back. The top on the one that had the better bass seemed a little 'loose' to me, and that seemed to account for the lack of treble crispness. I liked the look of the top bracing on the other much better, and could easily get into the soundhole to shave the back braces. I worked mostly on the brace just below the waist, and the one below that, above the wide point of the lower bout (it was a 4-brace back).

As I reduced the back braces I would check the tap tone pitches every once in a while, and also play it to see how it sounded. At first there was not much change in the timbre, but as the pitches got closer the bass started to improve, and when the pitch relationship got to be the same as that of the other instrument, the bass response also became quite similar. Since, as it seems, much of the treble response comes from the top, and I had not touched that, I had managed to do what the customer wanted: the transplant the better bass into the guitar that alredy had good trebles, without effecting the trebles noticably. Thanks Fred!      

"Also I am confused - are you saying that moving the sound hole forward can enhance base or is it the other way around. "

Moving the soundhole upward, toward the upper edge of the top, tends to drop the 'main air' resonant pitch. For a lot more on this, see Allen's 'The Basics of Air Resonance' in American Lutherie #1, or the first 'Big Red Book' if you don't have the mags.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:41 am 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth]
If you think you can get away with thinning the top a bit, taking off material from the bridge back will often enhance the bass. You can get surprisingly thin at the tailblock if you're careful. Just don't think it in front of the bridge!

. [/QUOTE]


Al...........do you feel the same holds true for archtops? I've typically left a thicker band (about .250") right from head to tail. Tips from knowledgeable builders on "fine-tuning" an archtop are hard to find.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:56 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I may not be the guy to ask bout archtops. I've made a few, and people like them, but I use a 'free plate' tuning method that's essentially the same as I use on fiddles. Once they are together I don't do a lot of work on the thickness; maybe a little scraping around the edge of the recurve to clean up after putting on the binding. The thoery is that I got it 'right' before I ever put the thing together, and don't want to change it afterward.

Lately I've been using 'uniform' graduations on my archtop tops: the last two were about 3.5 to 3.7mm thick all over. The classical archtop I'm working on now will have 'reverse grads': it will be a bit thinner in the center, if all goes as planned. This is something that has come out in the past few years in the violin world, and it seems to work for archtop guitars as well.

BTW, I also taper the tops on my flat tops early on: before the bracing goes on, in fact. Same thing: I beleive I get the balance I want between the top and bracing stiffness on the free plates, so I don't want to make any changes afterward. I started doing this 'pre-taper' precisely because I found myself 'fine tuning' them that way after assembly.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:07 am 
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Koa
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Thanks Alan. I'll be interested to know how the reverse grad experiment works out.


I've been wondering if it would make sense, in archtops, to follow the "general rules for tuning..." shown in Jansson's "Acoustics for Violin & Guitar makers" (p 5-24)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:53 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Those rules work reasonably well, as far as they go. The 'mode influence surface maps' developed by Oliver Rodgers from his computer modeling work are generally a bit better. I used those to work out the scheme I showed in my plate tuning series in 'American Lutherie'; see figure #19, p 47, of AL#29. It's also in one of the 'Big Red Books', of course.

Naturally, we've all learned a few things in 15+ years (I hope!), but that particular diagram still works for archtops as well as fiddles.


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