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Sound ports suck? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12954 |
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Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:09 am ] |
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I just put strings on my 7th guitar. I have built 4 guitars with sound ports. The first three ports worked great. The latest one is just OK. While playing last night, I put my hand over the hole to listen to the difference. I heard some, but not as much as I've heard on my other guitars. After repeating it several times, I swear I can feel at draft into the sound port. I have never felt that before. It is sucking air into the guitar, creating a vacuum. It is an OLF SJ shape. The difference is this one is lightly symmetrically braced with a much thinner top - between .080" and .090". The back is also thinner with and lighter ladder braces. The others were standard bracing and thickness. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm thinking it is a good sign, that I'm moving some air. It has really nice bass, yet nicely balanced to my ears. All my sound ports have been round, on the upper bout, and about 1.5" diameter. I could not feel any air movement, but there was more sound coming from the port. |
Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:25 am ] |
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Steve, you aren't crazy (well not for this reason anyway ). But it's not creating vacuum, it's eliminating it. This is the main reason I choose to do ports. When clients ask about them I explain my theory like a big ol' can of Hi-C. (Remember those back in the '70s?) If you poke one hole in it and try to pour you get, "glug, glug, glug". If you poke a second hole you get rid of the vacuum and it flows out very smoothly. Same goes with the air that is being pumped in the box. It makes a vacuum as it all tries to rush out of the sound hole. Port it and it flows out evenly and nicely. One "side effect" I found while doing my port studies is that the guitar is louder to the listener when ported. This supports the 'vacuum theory'. So, if you are feeling a pulling of the air when you go to cover it up, it's doing its job, and doing it well. |
Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:12 am ] |
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Kind of a venture affect as the guitar expels air out the main sound hole it also pulls air though the smaller port. The main sound hole is moving air at a higher volume and lower pressure and the port is drawing air at lower volume but higher pressure so the does not want to back out of the port |
Author: | Howard Klepper [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:42 am ] |
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I first saw this idea suggested by Kenny Hill. I think it is mistaken. The air in the box is either at higher pressure than the ambient air or lower pressure. So the guitar is either simultaneously pushing air out through its openings or simultaneously pulling air in through them. There is a bit of a lag as a pressure wave moves through the box, but I do not think there is simultaneous low pressure at the soundhole and high pressure at the side port to any significant degree, especially at the fundamental air resonance. If the two holes were completely out of phase as described above, ports would just be cancelling part of the sound, and the main air resonance (as well as some others) would be weakened. The Hi C can is not a good analogy. It is a one-way movement of fluid. Actually, it is functioning more like a guitar body when it only has a single hole punched in it. Then it gets alternating high and low pressure at its port and needs to suck air in during the low pressure phase. |
Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:52 am ] |
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So Howard you are saying it is more like a bellows effect |
Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:55 am ] |
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They are in phase. both expelling at the same time but because the pressure drop across the big hole is greater there is a higher pressure refill on the refill phase at the small port so it is more noticeable than at the sound hole. |
Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:56 am ] |
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Gee, as of late, I didn't realize it was possible to disagree without making a person look small and inferior. Hmmmm. Anyway. Howard, your thought process has me a bit stumped. Likely because you HAVE one and I'm, well, me. But if the air is trying to escape from the main soundhole, other air would need to get in to replace that air, yes? If it is trying to squeeze in through the main soundhole, it makes sense, to me, that it would cause problems while fighting with the air coming out. Punch a sound port and the problem is solved. I also don't understand your problem with my Hi-C can. From your explaination, it makes total sense. Even if back and forth, the port "ports" the air. What am I missing? |
Author: | Philip Perdue [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:28 am ] |
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When Hesh mentioned a “tuned port” it made me remember something I would like to share. When I took my Ukulele building school we discussed sound ports and how to tune them to the individual instrument. The Hana Lima ‘Ia school teaches adjusting the ports after stringing them up. They take careful sound measurements from the area of the port and then enlarge the port area a small amount. This process continues until the point of diminished returns. Once the sound level decreases the port is bound and is brought back to its highest level of output. I know that a tenor ukulele is quite a bit smaller than guitars but I thought you might like the info. Philip |
Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:41 am ] |
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My last posts was a question to you but were mistakenly posted as a comment |
Author: | Bob Long [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:53 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Gee, as of late, I didn't realize it was possible to disagree without making a person look small and inferior. Hmmmm. Anyway. Howard, your thought process has me a bit stumped. Likely because you HAVE one and I'm, well, me. But if the air is trying to escape from the main soundhole, other air would need to get in to replace that air, yes? If it is trying to squeeze in through the main soundhole, it makes sense, to me, that it would cause problems while fighting with the air coming out. Punch a sound port and the problem is solved. I also don't understand your problem with my Hi-C can. From your explaination, it makes total sense. Even if back and forth, the port "ports" the air. What am I missing?[/QUOTE] Paul, My take on the dynamics of your analogy is this... The Hi-C can's in-coming spout has lower pressure on the inside and higher pressure on the outside. The out-going spout has just the opposite. While the guitar has high pressure AND low pressure present at both the sound hole and the port. I hope this make sense. long |
Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:57 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Bob Long] [QUOTE=Pwoolson] Gee, as of late, I didn't realize it was possible to disagree without making a person look small and inferior. Hmmmm. Anyway. Howard, your thought process has me a bit stumped. Likely because you HAVE one and I'm, well, me. But if the air is trying to escape from the main soundhole, other air would need to get in to replace that air, yes? If it is trying to squeeze in through the main soundhole, it makes sense, to me, that it would cause problems while fighting with the air coming out. Punch a sound port and the problem is solved. I also don't understand your problem with my Hi-C can. From your explaination, it makes total sense. Even if back and forth, the port "ports" the air. What am I missing?[/QUOTE] Paul, My take on the dynamics of your analogy is this... The Hi-C can's in-coming spout has lower pressure on the inside and higher pressure on the outside. The out-going spout has just the opposite. While the guitar has high pressure AND low pressure present at both the sound hole and the port. I hope this make sense. long [/QUOTE] That does indeed help. But I still think that it would port the vacuum on the out going pump, and port the pressure on the incoming pump. Basically stabilizing the unit. |
Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:59 am ] |
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The drawing effect that occurs in the soundport is a simple exhibition of pressure relief by the body. The air inside he body excited by the vibration of the top by the strings needs to escape and will always do so by the path of least reisitence. The soundhole being the larger of the openings in the body provides the route of exhaust for the air and the expected reaction to that exhaust is for the air to create a draft to replace itself. That's why the soundport is pulling. I really like the guitars that i've built with ports in the side, but haven't done one in a little while. A few of my standing orders have had them added since they've gained considerable popularity in recent years. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:49 am ] |
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I think it probably really is like a speaker box. The most efficient speaker enclosure is a sealed, rigid box, but, it requires a significant amount of sealed air space to be efficient. To correct for that problem, the tuned port was developed to both, create back pressure against the speaker, and (the reason for tuning) allow for release of pressure. Mostly it is designed to be small enough to put a certain amount of back pressure on the speaker which operates better under those circumstances. Phillip is right. The size would depend on the amount of air space in the box and how much the top moves, creating the pressure and suction waves inside the box. I'm sure it would relate directly to the size of the sound hole, and change relative to the flexibility of the top too. It makes me wonder if the guitar top is also more efficient a producer of sound when there is a certain amount of back pressure, like a speaker. The musings of a beginner, who has read a lot of stuff, and has wondered about all of this before. No attempt to inject my thoughts as being correct, just wondering out loud! |
Author: | Kelby [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:52 am ] |
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You definitely would not want air to be going IN through the soundport at the same time air is going OUT through the soundhole. That would result in phase cancellation, which would make your guitar sound quieter. Paul's Hi-C analogy is incorrect because there are different issues at work in a Hi-C can than in a guitar. Let's suppose you are pouring out a can of Hi-C with only one hole in the can --- no hole for the air to get back in. As the liquid goes out of the can, the can has less liquid in it, and nothing to replace it. That reduces the air pressure inside the can. The more liquid you pour out, the lower the air pressure inside the can. As this continues, the difference in air pressure between the inside of the can and the outside of the can eventually gets so substantial that the air outside pushes itself back into the can, stopping (or at least reducing) the flow of liquid until the pressure differential is reduced to the point the liquid flows freely again. That free flow of liquid then reduces the air pressure in the can, and the cycle continues. That cycle produces the "glug, glug" effect. With a guitar, the analogy doesn't work because you don't have a continuous flow of anything (liquid or air) moving out of the guitar. Instead, as the top vibrates, the air pressure inside the guitar alternately increases and decreases relative to the air pressure outside the guitar. When the soundboard moves inward, the air pressure inside the guitar increases relative to the air pressure outside the guitar, so the air inside looks for a way out. When the soundboard moves outward, the air pressure inside the guitar decreases relative to the air pressure outside the guitar, and the air outside looks for a way in. In the Hi-C example, you use an extra hole in the can to allow a continuous flow of fluid out of the can and air into the can; in a guitar, we don't want a continuous flow. We want a vibration --- in other words, the "glug glug" is the very vibration that produces sound, so that's what we want. When air is trying to find a way in, it will come in any way it can --- through the soundport, through the soundhole, through gaps in the binding, or anywhere else it can. Likewise going out. And that's a good thing. Because if air was trying to get into the guitar in some places at the same time it was going out of the guitar in other places, the vibrations would cancel each other out and you would get phase cancellation. The speaker analogy someone gave above is an interesting one. There are two basic types of speakers that are relevant here --- "bass reflex" and "acoustic suspension." They work on very different principles. A bass reflex is the type of ported speaker people are talking about in this thread. The idea is that when the air pressure increases and decreases in the speaker enclosure, the air in the port acts as an additional speaker. It moves in and out, creating an additional sound source which has the potential to make the speaker more efficient (louder). It is essential that these ports be "tuned," so that the air moving in and out of the port is in phase with the speaker, or else you will get phase cancellation, and that will actually reduce the volume. The same would be true with a soundport on a guitar --- an additional source of air moving in and out of the guitar can make the guitar louder, provided it is in phase with the vibrations produced by the rest of the instrument. An acoustic suspension speaker, on the other hand, has no port. It is sealed. The principle is that when the speaker cone moves outward, the air pressure in the enclosure reduces relative to the air pressure outside the enclosure, which pulls the speaker cone back in. When the speaker cone moves inward, the pressure inside the enclosure increases relative to the outside pressure, pushing the speaker cone back out. This could be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have designed the enclosure well (which is a bit tricky), the changes in air pressure will help you --- when you want the speaker to move out, the air pressure is pushing it out, and vice versa, making the speaker louder. But if you haven't designed the enclosure well, it will work against you --- when you want the speaker to move out, the air pressure will still be pulling it in, making the speaker quieter. Which one is better? Frankly, they each have advantages and disadvantages. Assuming both are equally well designed, the bass reflex speaker will have a flat response curve to a lower frequency, but below that frequency, the response will drop off abruptly. An acoustic suspension speaker's response curve will start to roll off at a higher frequency, but it will roll off more gradually. Usually an acoustic suspension speaker will have tighter and more controlled bass, (although it depends on the design); usually bass reflex speakers will be louder in the lower frequencies before they roll off, but will often be a little muddier and boomier in those frequencies. Guitars do not fit neatly into either camp. They are not sealed, so you never get a true acoustic suspension effect. On the other hand, they are not bass reflex, because you aren't trying to tune to a speaker cone. Nevertheless, we can learn from speaker design. The fluctuating air pressure inside a guitar is important to your guitar's sound. While the force of the string vibration starts the soundboard moving back and forth, the alternating increases and decreases in air pressure inside the guitar can push and pull on your soundboard in a way that increases sustain. You can also take advantage of that alternating pressure to create more volume through a soundport. |
Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:01 am ] |
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You guys are making my brain hurt! Ok, my Hi-C can analogy is bad. But I believe my thinking is on target with what you all are saying. I just don't have the brain power to put it into words. Somebody needs to draw me a picture. |
Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:02 am ] |
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Still thinking here! Kelby is right, I was trying to be too simple (my words). It makes me wonder - Are soundhole sizes "scientifically" sized? If so, there might not be an advantage to a sound port. If not, then the sound port might correct for the sizing error relative to the box size, and air movement created by the top. If scientifically sized, it would have to be reduced by a ratio to the port. ??????? |
Author: | Tim McKnight [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:04 am ] |
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When I was doing my R&D on ports I routinely used "Post-it" notes to cover the port. What was immediatley apparant from my first port is the little Post-it looked like a reed valve on a 2 cycle engine. It just flutters (opens and closes) as you play the guitar. Depending on your string attack the Post-it will open and close in varying distances. To settle the debate about the main sound hole phase, take a sheet of notebook paper and cover the sound hole, using one piece of masking tape, like a giant Post-it note. You will quickly be able to see if the two openings are indeed working in or out of phase. Both holes should be covered with Post-it notes. Who wants to be the first to report their findings to the forum? |
Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:20 am ] |
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Oh, I tried it. Here are the results: Brace yourselves: This is intense: Are you sitting down? Both pieces of paper (port and soundhole) pretty much fluttered a little and then sat there. Conclusive evidence that I'm right and everyone else in the world is wrong! |
Author: | Kelby [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:22 am ] |
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Boy, Tim, if you can see whether two fluttering post-it notes are in phase, your eyes are much faster than mine! |
Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:39 am ] |
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You got to turn off that over head fan. I is giving you erroneous input data Oh Al where are you? |
Author: | Chansen [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:41 am ] |
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Why not use "smoke"... ok not really smoke, but whatever they use when they do those streamline tests on cars? I think this may give a better indication of what is happening than a post-it note. Sorry, I haven't had time to even read this whole thread but I thought I'd throw my hat in. I don't have any clue what's happening - as I'm new to this and have never built a guitar with a port -, but it seems like this type of test with pretty much zero weight (unlike paper) would give the test a more unbiased outcome. Anyone disagree or even know what they use for those air-stream tests? |
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