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Doing Apprenticeships
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Author:  Sprockett [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:41 pm ]
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My wife asked me today about a young man who is very very interested in learning to build, they know about me through my website and my wifes big mouth

(funny story about her... we went into Guitar Center to get some strings a few weeks ago to and so I hopped back to the acoustic section, the guy came in and asked what we were doing and she belts out "Just looking at the competition!!!", I tried to hide from embarrasment but there was nowhere to run. So he grilled us on everything we looked at ) anyways....

So this young man is 19, he has a car and is holding a job and wants to come by and see what I do and how I do it. He's looking to apprenticeship to learn how to build. I told her I would be glad to talk to him, but I certainly can't pay him and I'm not a "professional" by any means..

So I'm not sure what to do in this situation, I've been building for 4 years now, I just glued the top on Guitar #8 tonight so I'm still learning. I'm concerned for a number of reasons....

1. I've only built 8 so far, unlike John Mayes who has done over a hundred.

2. I'm still figuring things out myself, I don't have all the answers.

3. I've come up with my own ways to do things but since I don't have dozens of guitars out there I don't feel my ideas have stood the test of time yet.

4. I don't even do my own setup, I have a friend who does that for me, I pay him $100 per guitar. I do it for 2 reasons a) I'm not as good at setting up as he is. b) I have so much do to, it's easier just to pay him.

5. I feel like I'm still at the mistake fixing stage.

Any advice?, I know you learn when you teach, I've taught programming classes, done training videos and spoken at technical seminars so I have some background in teaching. I just don't want to lead someone in the wrong direction, but at the same time I want to encourage him. There have been many times I wish I had someone to go to for advice when I'm stuck or someone to show me how (this forum is good for some of that).

Thanks

-Paul-
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:09 pm ]
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Paul,

I've taught students for the past 30 years, you have the most important qualification for a teacher, passion. If you can infect him with your passion then that is a great gift. You also have the gift of modesty, the arrogant teacher who believes that he knows it all is the worst type of all. Don't try to impress him with your technical skill (which you do have), just show him why you love doing it.

I have less contact with my students now as I spend most of my time supervising my graduate students and doing my own research, but when I was teaching undergraduates daily it was the most amazing learning process for me as well. The last thing that an aspiring builder wants is someone who has lost the spark of early enthusiasm, and has passed into 'professorship' (that's why they don't let me too near the new intake of students!). The Band Jethro Tull many years ago had the line "the wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick" which is very true. I think you'll be an excellent introduction for this young man to the great world of Luthery.

ColinColin S38422.2426851852
Author:  Pwoolson [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:09 am ]
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Paul, If I were you, I'd just sit the guy down and be honest with him. Find out what he is seaking and see if you can work something out. I find that sometimes, just because we've build more than one guitar, people put us on a higher pedistal than we belong. If you're up front with him about your situation, I think things will work out better.
Payment: for some reason, the notion of an apprenticeship has gotten turned into a "job". The payment is the education. That's what it's all about. You might have him make a guitar along side you making one. Then he could keep the one he made. I'm a little leary about having unskilled hands touch anything that I put my name on. So, for me, that would be a way that he could get an education, I could learn my teaching, and his unskilled hands needn't worry about screwing up a great set of Zircote.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:12 am ]
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Paul,

I am in the process of helping a guy build a guitar right now. He comes over once a week and we work on his guitar and on one that I am building along with him. We decided to build a parlor type guitar.

The process is one of developing a new friendship, as well as a great learning experience for me (well, hopefully for both of us).

You might be amazed at what you actually learn from the process. When you have to explain not only how, but also why you do things a certain way, it starts to make you think about all your processes. Sometimes this results in a better process for you to begin using.

I would make some ground rules ahead of time. Things like, who is going to supply materials. And I mean ALL materials. It is very easy to wind up supplying all the glue, masking tape, CA, and all the other things we just reach for.

If he really wants to make a guitar it shouldn't be a big deal for him to buy a "kit" of the things he will need to accomplish that.

Hope this helps.
Author:  Dickey [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:15 am ]
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I see a problem, he can't afford to work for free, you can't afford to pay him.

But, on the bright side... he's interested in what you do, and you are interested in what he can do.

Just be up front and tell him it's a hard living, endured by the joy of artistic expression and the hope that someday your efforts will be recognized as valuable.

I invited my neice to come and build a guitar summer before last. She was thrilled, and flew in for a vacation/ opportunity of a lifetime. By the end of the three weeks, she had a nice guitar, and I had a black eye as a "slavedriver".

She fell in love with her little L-00, taking it alone off to college. So, sometimes our benevolence at including others costs us dearly. Benefit to me, proof that by concentrating the 200 hour guitar is possible.

I'm not sure of the benefit to her beyond the obvious. When I taught contruction class at the high school, I told my students, one of the things you may learn is that you don't want to do this for a living. Grin.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:04 am ]
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson]
Payment: for some reason, the notion of an apprenticeship has gotten turned into a "job". The payment is the education. [/QUOTE] I have told this story before, but here it is again.

" The reward for offering an apprenticeship".
In a small town in Louisiana, where I lived durring high school I had a friend that found a local small boat builder that took him in under his wing and taught him how to build small fiberglass fishing and hunting peroux(sp?) This friend worked a day job in the summers and worked on the boats in the evenings. The propiortor gave him a place in the shope to live. He ate with the owners family and pretty much lived as a member of that family for two years of high school and 4 years of college. He never recieved a wage for his work. His payment was the room, meals and education in the craft.

There is a warrning to go with this story however. As it turned out, the owner was unable to ever get rid of the kid. As it turns out the kid married the owners daughter and is now the plant manager of his company.

So take care with whom you mentor. You just may have to put up with them for a long while MichaelP38422.5044675926
Author:  Ron Priest [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:53 am ]
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I read in the book about Grit Laskin, that he worked the first year for free for Jean Laravee. He couldn't afford to pay Grit and Grit wanted to learn. Today we seem to think that money is the only way people respond. I therefore agree with Michael and Paul. Some that teach luthiering charge for the materials and their time. One fellow I know of was charging $250 a month for 10 months. During that time you built as many guitars (average I believe was ten) as possible and you got to keep one. So there are many ways to approach people willing to learn. Are you interested in showing others your techniques and savvy? Do you want another body in your shop using your tools and equipment? Do you have the patience to answer all the questions and fix the mistakes that they will make? Bottom line are you up to the task? I wish you well on your decision.
Author:  Dickey [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:54 am ]
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In many ways we are all apprentices each time we snag a new idea off the OLF. Hence, Michael Payne's statement is true, you can multiply what you learn, by what you teach. I never learned more in my life than when I was teaching. So, Paul/ Sprockett, you want to learn faster?
Author:  Sprockett [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:56 am ]
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Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses, after thinking about it and reading the feedback here I'm going to bring him over and show him what I do and see how interested he is. Woolson's got the right idea in that I will be sure to level with him so there's no perception issues.

If he wants to apprentice and build his own, then I'll set down a number of rules:

1. It's my shop, I invested the money into it, so I make the rules.

2. You buy your own wood and hardware for what you build, I'll supply everything else.

3. You can only use tools once you prove you know how to use them safely.

4. I don't make a living doing this, it's a hobby for now (and an expensive one at that), I can't pay you, but I won't charge you for my time. All I ask in return is some help in doing certain things like cleaning up before we finish the day (if you've been in the shop helping).

5. If your building something for one of my guitars I want it done a certain way and to a certain level, I expect no less of myself.

I could try to make money like some builders in the area have done by charging for their time but I don't think that's always prudent. If I was feeding my family doing this then it would be different, but I'm blessed with a good job that pays well so I can afford to be gracious. I want to encourage and hopefully *I'll* be the one learning through sharing my experience.

Thanks All...

-Paul-
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:10 am ]
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson]So, for me, that would be a way that he could get an education... and his unskilled hands needn't worry about screwing up a great set of Zircote. [/QUOTE]

In that case, let him buy the wood and build it. The ziricote is going to wreck itself eventually anyway.

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:30 am ]
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Bruce I can’t agree more. I can't tell you how many times I have add new or revised established procedures due to new knowledge acquired from stings on this forum.

Paul, I have a young kid (17) that lives in the area. He comes over most weekend offering to help around the shop. I started him off cleaning up and helping with simple tasks like sanding and shaping braces and bridges on the router table. In the past six months he has learned a fair amount, mostly by just watching.

It all got stated on a repair I did for him on his Epie LP. He is now interested in building an acoustic for him self. He is saving to buy the material and plans to get started by May. I am going to let him have use of my shop, but only in my presents and supervision. I don't at all consider this an apprenticeship. I look at it as only an introduction. Maybe if the passion blooms then at a later date I will try to mentor him more seriously but for now I am treating the whole thing like I did when my young kids had the first inquiry into a new interest. Allowing him to ingest the concept and basic requirements of the craft. Then setting back to see if the seed takes root. If the seed grows into a sapling with strong branches, then the time for pruning will be apparent. If it not, well I well have the knowledge that what I shared will at some time, some how be applied to some challenge or pursuit in his life.

Mentoring: The most important thing one can do for the future of our youth, and in our case "our craft"
MichaelP38422.6116203704
Author:  Roy O [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:28 am ]
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Paul, On a side note, make sure your insurance adequately covers any accident he may have in your shop. It's great that you're considering doing this but it's also important to be prepared.
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:57 am ]
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If you get a change read my article in Guitarmaker. It was one or two issues ago. "Mike and Tracy Make Matching Mandolins" My situation was very similar to yours. The deal was we build two instruments. We both work on both of them. At the end she got to pick one of them. She payed for the parts I had to purchase. (tuners, fretboard, a few other things.) Every thing else I already had in the shop. We resawed some lumberyard mahagony for back and side. LMII gave me a great deal on mandolin width sitka.

It was a great experiance for both of us. She bought the cases for both instruments. Her out of pocket expenses were about $200. I made her clean the shop every third week or so.

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