Official Luthiers Forum!

Did you know that a Japanese sushi chef apprenticeship can take a decade or more? The first couple years the apprentice can't even touch a knife and is restricted to menial tasks around the kitchen, after that they begin to learn how to make sticky-rice which is the base to most sushi. This part of the apprenticeship can take several years while the chef perfects techniques and gains patience and consistancy in preperation. Only when the teacher is satisfied can the student move up and on with the training.

I am being humbled quite regularly as I build this first guitar, and it really has made me wonder what skills are the most important to this craft. To make a short story long.... what do you think a guitar-maker's "rice" is?

I'm really hoping to hear what some of the long-time veterans to this craft think, but I also want to hear from those who have only been doing it for a short while (relatively of course). So I appologize if this is a terrible analogy, but I hope somehow you all understand what I am trying to get at.

Anyone?

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

Sanding

At the risk of being offensive and rude to some people, and to carry forward with your sushi analogy, I think that many here would like to go directly from the street to preparing fugu. No logical sequence of learning necessary, and ten years is too long to spend learning anything.   And if I'm not talking about you who are reading this, then don't bother getting all huffy...I wasn't talking about you!

Rice for guitar makers is Neck and Fretwork 101 which includes setups and intonation. If you can't do that, you're not a guitar maker nor a luthier. That's the skill set that will get you hired, and let's not hear from those who don't want to do this for a living. Sorry, but you, too, should know how to refret, level, crown, and polish, set action at the nut and saddle, adjust a truss rod, and finally set intonation before you think of designing and building anything unsupervised.   Junker instruments are the way to start with this. It's perfectly alright to be a hobbyist, but for heaven's sake, learn the basics first.

Learning basic fretwork and setup can be incredibly rewarding for an amateur. You can be a hero to all your guitar playing pals by making their instruments play wonderfully. You can make a little dough on the side. You can do setups for a music store in exchange for store credit.   You can win friends and influence people! You'll also be on your way to a much deeper understanding of how guitars actually work and what you need to do to make good playing ones before you start sawing and sanding.

That's a very good point you make Rick,

I have not built even one yet, but I have set up quite a few and saved a few basket cases. As you say, fret leveling, profile and polishing work, setting the action at or even making a GOOD replacement nut and saddle and adjusting relief and intonation, these are the foundations which allow one to make an instrument a true joy to play.

I also believe that undertaking basic repairs such as broken headstock re-glues and finish blending and popped brace repairs etc can teach you a lot. Once you have a few successful jobs under your belt the boost in confidence and understanding can do you no harm.

For this very reason, at the start I took on just about anything just to get my hand in. Some jobs took more work than the cheap plywood camp axe was worth, but I reckon at first you need to do just so you can trust your skills to a more deserving instrument when they come along.

The hardest bit in doing "write-off" work is that later, when you have had that experience and can afford to be more selective, is telling people to just go but another cheapy cause their old beast ain't worthy of the effort

That's why when you are taking on repairs for the experience, you should explain to the owner exactly that. You tell'em straight up, your guitar is not viable to repair but you are willing to have a go for the experience and a basic fee of $???, if you fail, they don't pay, nothing ventured nothing gained. With that clarified from the start, most people are very happy just to get someone to look at the old 6 string chick magnet for them.

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] I think that many here would like to go directly from the street to preparing fugu.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree. A majority of people on this forum seem to follow a sensible progression from simple projects to more complicated projects demanding more skill and knowledge.

Some of the instruments built by people on this forum who are largely self taught match those built by "Professional Master Luthiers" both in terms of quality of build and sound.

How many of us are going to be lucky enough to get an apprenticeship with a Master Luthier? The next option is paying for building lessons from a Master Luthier..not all of us can afford that. The next best way to learn is by teaching ourselves making making use of the resources available in books, by talking to other luthiers and off the net.

Learning set up and fretwork? Whether you learn it first before attempting your first build or learn the skills as you build.....IMO it's 6 of one or half a dozen of the other.

I tend to agree with Rick on this one. As Todd mentions, a lot off woodworking skills carry over into guitar building, but the fretwork, setup, and intonation are unique to fretted instruments. Just because a guitar has great workmanship in all the joinery and finish doesn't mean that it can rival a guitar made by a true master luthier. Those folks often get their action to within .001" of ideal. No amount of woodworking can teach you that. I've made some very nicely playable instruments, but yesterday as I was playing a couple made by Steve Spodaryk, a protege' of Julius Borges, I realized just how perfect the playability and intonation etc. need to be. That doesn't just happen on it's own. There's dozens and often hundreds of guitars under your belt before you really have nailed both the understanding and the skills to reach that level.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Chansen] Did you know that a Japanese sushi chef apprenticeship can take a decade or more? QUOTE]

Yeah its amazing but I reckon if I asked you to do a blind taste off between a master sushi maker and my wife you'd be hard pressed to pick the sushi made by the Master.

A majority of the people in this forum dont make guitars as a source of income...its a hobby/pastime and for some like myself perhaps an obsession. I dont care if Im a luthier (authorised or unauthorised), a guitar maker or simply a bloke that makes a lot of sawdust...I'm having fun and that's the aim of the exercise.

Likewise my wife makes sushi because she enjoys it and she enjoys seeing other people enjoying eating it. She hasn't done a 20 year apprenticeship and she cant scoop up a handful of sushi rice and always get exactly the same number of grains of rice but I dont care....her sushi tastes good

I can't speak for any other builders on the forum, but personally, I did setups and enhancements on 5 guitars before I ever even thought of building a guitar. Even that was nowhere near enough to acquire the kind of confidence to take into the building world. But it did serve to convince me that this was far more complex than I ever imagined and helped to promote a healthy sense of humility.

And once I decided to consider building, I bought a bunch of scrap components from Martin so that I could practice as many techniques as possible. I ended up being able to fret...and re-fret ebony fingerboards. I learned how to glue FBs to necks...how to level them...how to introduce relief. I learned how to glue braces whth HHG ...and also learned how to remove them. I even finished an entire top with rattle can lacquer to convince myself that I could. All of the above took about 2 years...and during that time, I was reading everything I could get my hands on as well as studying FRETS.com and lurking on forums.

And after this self-imposed apprentice program I took the plunge and quickly realized that I still was in way over my head. Had it not been for the generous help of friends like John Hall and Mario as well as other folks on the forums, I would have failed miserably. Maybe I'm just a slow learner.

So...this is a long-winded way of saying that I whole-heartedly agree with Rick. In my opinion, Rick is a welcomed addition to our forum. We haven't had such a no-BS taskmaster since Mario left and I believe that the void has caused the forum to become sloppy.

While it's true that it may not be possible to do a classic apprenticeship such as described in Christian's original post,there are a lot of lessons a rookie can learn before tackling the building of an entire guitar. In my case, it taught me a lot more than merely practicing a technique...it taught me patience and a healthy respect for the skills required to build a quality instrument.

That has also has carried over to showing a healthy
respect for the seasoned veteran who takes time from his very busy schedule and chooses to give back to the luthier community by posting on our forum.

So let's sit back and learn...feel free to ask questions but develop a thick skin for the answers that may reveal how inadequate our skills and experience may really be. Often times the best teachers don't give a student "the answer". Instead, they promote a spirit and drive to experiment and try alternatives that when compared against a known, can open up totally new paradigms. The best students find their own answers. And I also believe that the best builders gained their confidence by having a humble respect for the craft, patience, attention to detail and hard work.

Thanks for joining us, Rick.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I don't feel qualified to answer this one...I'm gonna sit back, read and learn.

Hello, One and All--Well, I think I'll chime in here and make an
admission; I wanted build a few guitars in the worse way, but after I
worked at it a little while, I realized I just sucked at it; I was wasting a lot
of valuable wood, throwing in a lot of time, and not getting very far. I
was just a hack, even after hours and hours and hours of study, trial and
error, more study, more trial and error. Some people are not made for
guitar building; it sounds and looks quite romantic, but Rick is absolutely
correct--the set of sub skills necessary are really deep and intricate, don't
fool yourself, That's not even mentioning the dust and mess. So I just
gave it up, focused on my playing and my enjoyment and appreciation of
these marvelous instruments that you are all building. It was
disappointing for me to reach this realization, but now I am much
happier, my wife is much happier, I have a lot of beautiful guitars that I
was able to buy by not pumping thousands of dollars into building.
That's my story. If you have any doubts, listen to Rick. He knows.

IMHO, the 'Rice' in guitar building is the same as woodworking in general. Learning what 'grain' is and what you can do with it. How to split, plane, shape, carve, scrape, sand, glue/fasten and finish wood is paramount in the successful life of anything built with wood. The guitar setup is like the plate that sushi is served on. Some like square, some rectangular. Some musicians like different action. It can be changed, sushi or guitar. The internal forces of expansion, contraction and the stresses put on the instrument can be lessoned by proven methods of fabrication... same goes for sushi.
chris

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

I think its just human nature to want to want to jump right in and try something 'cool' that they saw in a magazine or on a website somewhere. Then they find it isn't as easy as they thought it would be. Its a sign of maturity to accept that you aren't going to pick up a set of tools and build a master-class instrument on your first try (or possibly even your tenth).

I am constantly amazed at the ease of posting a question to a forum like this and getting some help from somebody who really knows what they are doing. Of course the answer isn't always going to be want you want to hear. Its another sign of maturity to be able to take criticism without tanking it personally.

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53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

Many good points I STILL havnt built my first the beater guitar is still in the   
shop getting "finished" I have done a lot to this particular beater..it was
really a beater my friend found it in his dads closet first thing I had to fix
was a popped brace...then the saddle which was in upside down because the
plastic was chipped on the top of it...while fixing the fretboard and
retrofiiting MOP marker dots I noticed the nut was pretty worn and found
out later it was also cracked...I think even when this beater is finished and I
start my first I will still be over my head but I will learn. and thats half the
battle (80s kids know that saying ) I had no woodworking skills when I
started but lots of books and web time and I am learning..sometimes the
best way to learn something is to dive right in..I do research and read all I
can but there is NO replacement for doing!

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Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

First, ask yourself whether you want to build real guitars or GLOs...Guitar-Like Objects.

Real guitars are playable...very playable. They sound good...very good. They're made to last AND sound good through a balance of structural integrity and take-it-to-the-limit performance enhancing design decisions that emphasize keeping the active components (the top and all it's made of) very light. They're made to be adjustable as needed and repairable. They're made to hold up well under varying climactic conditions even though most are made of a climactically unstable material...wood. They're made with a combination of wood and metal (frets, tuners) that has to meet or exceed most commercial machine shop tolerances in some very critical areas...fret work...in order to meet the first requirement I lay out in this paragraph.

The very last thing that guitars need to do is to look good, yet that is the first thing that most beginning guitar makers obsess over. Get over the GLO thing, learn what guitars really are (musician's tools), learn the basics, and then when you've got all that sussed, you can worry about beautiful wood, exacting miters, inlay, perfect finishes, etc.

In the impatient rush to be thought of as a guitar maker...a luthier, if you will, many of you are ignoring what guitars are. You're showing off your first or third or fifth build here and elsewhere on the Internet in order to get strokes for building a GLO. What I'd like to know is what a good professional guitar player thinks of my guitars, not what a bunch of people think of a pretty picture of a guitar.

Ask yourself this: Would one of my guitar heroes play my guitar on a CD project? If the answer isn't "yes", then you've got some work to do...

Can't argue with that one bit...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thank you for all the insight into this!

Rick, I read the "fret buzz" thread shortly after writing this and I figured this was the answer I would receive. This makes sense to me as Todd said because it is unique to fretted instruments. I have no fanciful illusions that this first guitar is going to be a masterpiece by looks or sound. I haven't spent any time learning fret and setup work yet (though I have a few laying around I could practice on).

I don't want to build a GLO... I want to build a guitar. But I think this first build will end up being the former - ah well. I will always be a (hobby, amateur, part-time, whatever) builder, but I do want to make quality instruments and truly learn the craft. This is why I asked the question - because I really want to know and I really appreciate the feedback I have gotten so far.

I think the main difference between the analogy and reality is that anyone can pick up a sushi knife and start hacking away. That's just the nature of it - those people who spent three or four years cleaning floors and preparing rice might get offended when they see this. Although I don't think it warrants being offended until said person starts proclaiming that they are top-notch sushi chef... they might just be having fun trying their best to learn in their own capacity. No one should take away their knife so-to-speak. I do see both side both sides to the argument though.

All that being said since it is basically unanimous on what is most important to learn - Where can I find a good fret and setup book? Something where this aspect is closely detailed or other references on the subject. Or should I just dive into a refret that needs to be done on an old 12 string that was given to me? During the West Coast get together, we spent some time on setup and fretwork with Cat Fox, but we couldn't cover too much in the short amount of time we had.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

Frankly, I haven't read any of the more recent books on fretwork or setup because I just don't think I need to. I'll tell you one interesting thing...Paul McGill told me that having some of his guitars fret leveled on a Plek machine taught him how to do the job better himself by hand...and that he thinks that a Plek-leveled guitar can be setup with the action about 20% lower without buzzing at a given playing touch. That's coming from a guitar maker who is a real master at it all.

Many of us who have been at this for decades are happy to admit that we don't know it all, and that we are still learning every day.   We are also used to working under far more stern taskmasters than some of you think I am here on the Internet. You haven't lived lutherie until a musician calls you to come up on stage in the middle of a concert with 1,200 people in the audience to fix his instrument NOW!   That was Phil Lesh of the Grateful Dead, and I had to leave off doing the front of house sound mixing to help him with his bass... To me, that defines what professional lutherie is about.

Well golly, sounds like lots of us (myself included) have a very, very long way to go before we should a) call ourselves luthiers, b) post photos of our GLOs here in order to get undeserved praise or c) believe we can live professional lutherie in all it's grateful glory. What a bunch of malarky!

Here's just one issue I have with that: I'm not a luthier. I'm a healthcare consultant (fairly successful one, too), and a guy who loves the guitar as both an instrument, and a work of art. This is a hobby, only ONE of my hobbies...you know, the way a lot of people play golf, AND tennis. If I post a photo of a guitar, it's to show friends, even internet-based friends, something that I've done, or to ask advice or to just be a part of the comraderie...not to present my shiny gold idol to the true lutherie gods for inspection. Anybody doing that needs counseling for an overinflated ego, or maybe - a hobby.

Nah, I'm a basement dwelling guitar maker, who still marvels at an Olson guitar exactly the way I did the first time I ever laid eyes on one. I genuinely pray I always will. I not going to hold myself to "Rick Turner's" standards of guitar knowledge anymore than I would hold myself to Tiger Woods' standards when I go golfing and drinking beer. For anyone to think otherwise is just foolish, and intejects a level of seriousness that I just don't find necessary.

I do this for fun. Perhaps more people should. The original thread said "what's the rice for this craft?" Well, mine is the hobby craft. I would fully expect someone making a living from guitar building to be a lot more serious than I am, or that's going to be one short-lived career. But to imply otherwise, even if coming from "a veteran", well...rings kind of hollow in my ears.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Hmmmmm.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Bill...It all depends on where we wish to establish the "common denominator". In my opinion, most would like to see a high bar raised as a challenge for us to aspire. I choose to do so and therefore will seek out and welcome the objective opinions of 40 year veterans...even though I consider my pursuit to remain amateur, not professional. Same with my golf, BTW! Yet I will strive to swing a club as accurately and consistently as Tiger Woods.

If others choose to be satisfied with a lower standard then that's OK as well...just don't expect approval from the 40 year veteran. And if some egos get bruised by the comments then don't ask. Guild Masters are supposed to bring the state of their craft forward and not allow the craft to slip backward into a state of mediocrity. Seems like guys like Mario, Rick, Al and scores of others are doing a great job. I hope they continue to do so and not hold us to standards any lower than they hold for themselves.

After what happened to Mario last year, I swore that I would speak loudly lest the same injustice happen to the next master builder that might ruffle a few feathers. I don't want this forum to descend into one where mediocrity is our goal and that political correctness becomes far more important than fact. I don't believe that I'm the only one who feel this way either.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

OK, I give up, Old Man. The rice is bling wood and fancy inlay; it's fossilized ivory bridge pins and twelve layer purflings and rosettes that take forty hours to make.

The true lutherie gods are the musicians who play our instruments. We are their tool makers.

Think I'll head over to Traugott's and talk some guitar making details...

[quote]To make a short story long.... what do you think a guitar-maker's "rice" is? [/quote]

     Probably long grain, some eat blue rose!!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I'm with Rick on this one; I'm no 'fretwork master', by any means, but feel confident doing refrets, setups, levelling, dressing and similar. Stewmac/Erlewine's 'Fretwork: Step by Step' is a good, relatively exhaustive text on, well, fretwork, but it all makes a lot more sense if you just do it.

Still not a huge fan of fretwork and setups (not as 'fun' as a lot of other bits and pieces), but boy does it make a difference to how the instrument actually plays in the end. Every hour spent is completely worth it. And it's pretty much the only bit of guitars I've completed I'll 'revise' at a later point (not big on revisionist history; my first guitars aren't perfect, but they stand as testaments to my progression as a builder, so I'm in no way tepted to go back and 'fix' the 'mistakes', unless they're negatively affecting their function - ie, fretwork, setup, that sort of thing).

[QUOTE=Billy T][quote]To make a short story long.... what do you think a guitar-maker's "rice" is? [/quote]



     Probably long grain, some eat blue rose!! [/QUOTE]

I'm surprised no one told me R.I.C.E. Rest Ice Compression Elevation - I've heard horror stories about sore elbows after a session or two of French Polish. This being their "rice".

_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian