Official Luthiers Forum!

Pat-
Excellent points!
Thanks for speaking up.

John

[QUOTE=burbank] It's not a habit of mine to jump into these heated threads, but I couldn't stay quiet for this one.

What gets my dander up is that there was a good discussion going here about how ms might solve a problem with buzzing, and it seemed he was getting his questions answered.

Then Rick Turner came along waving a flag about how everyone who was serious about learning to build guitars should spend a few years at a repair bench. Yes, that's a great start for someone who plans to spend the next 40 years of their life building guitars as great as I suspect his are. But not many people are able to do that or are not willing to make such a sacrifice for a hobby, which is where I think a good many of us are going with our building. Granted, a lot of us, myself included, are awe-stricken by the idea that we can produce something that even remotely resembles an instrument.

I have no doubt that Rick Turner has a huge body of knowledge that he'd like to share, but it rankles if his belittling manner with beginners here and elsewhere is to be excused because of his stature as a builder. If the tone of his remarks were present in a post by one of us mere apprentices, I think someone would have said something and rightly so. But for us to let it slide because he's Rick Turner does a disservice to everyone here despite what he has to offer.

We could well end up losing members whose questions he deems unacceptable. Is this possibility a means for raising this forum to a level he finds acceptable ? Should we strive for that? This forum is what it is. If it's 101, then that's what it's become. I and I think, many others like it that way. If Rick Turner has been granted some license to turn this forum into something else, that's another thing entirely. But I don' think that's the case.

Sorry, but when experts post expecting to get the respect that they themselves do not show others, I just can't let it pass.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't have said it better.

Mark

Pat...I hope you're wrong about members leaving because of the standards getting higher. If some folks want a permanent dose of Guitarbuilding 101 then OLF may not be the right place for them.

And while I'd like to think of the OLF as the most rookie-friendly site on the internet, I'd also like to think of it as a one-room schoolhouse. Under that scenario, everyone gets exposed to entry level issues as well as more complex stuff. So a rookie can sit back and absorb as much as possible. Likewise, the more experienced builders would certainly interest the vast majority with their time-proven techniques or something new and exciting. The possibilities are endless and I believe that would attract a lot of interest and participation. And most likely, because of their busy schedules, they are less likely to participate in less complex discussions unless the info being presented is totally wrong.

I hope after awhile, folks whose feelings might have been bruised can look at the forum more objectively and find a way to enjoy the ride.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Pat...I hope you're wrong about members leaving because of the standards getting higher.
[/QUOTE]

????
This isn't about 'standards getting higher'- It's about how we treat each other here.
Many people don't find insults and abuse the best encouragement for learning.

John

I still fail to see insults and abuse in the original reply that was intended to be instructional. Maybe I have a thicker skin. Is it abusive or insulting to suggest that someone do some homework before attempting a complex operation?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ,

I guess I could have been clearer in my post. I meant that, as John said, it's about how we treat each other. We may lose members if their questions don't meet someone's standards for acceptability, especially if those questions are met with abrasive responses. Those who could benefit most, especially beginners like me, or new members, might slink off with their tails between their legs after being humiliated here publicly, never to be seen again. So, my beef really is about how we treat each other.

I don't disagree with the content of Rick Turner's post about sweating the basics, but snapping at a member in search of basic help is not what we're about here, I hope.

In my post above, I used the phrase, "If it's 101, then that's what it's become" in which I meant to convey the idea that it has expanded to include 101. That's a great quality of this forum, one that it didn't possess at its inception, according to the very first posts 4 years ago. I support completely the idea of the OLF content reaching for higher levels, if I catch your meaning correctly. I think that's a great possibility, but I wouldn't want that to happen at the expense of those seeking answers to basic questions. The idea of the one-room schoolhouse is a nice analogy.

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

At the risk of being yet another critic - How many times have I heard, "The only stupid question is the question not asked!", and the original question was an honest question seeking an answer.  Not a stupid question.  It may be 101 to some, but not to everyone.  

This: "This point out just why I believe that anyone who is serious about
building guitars (an Official Luthier...) should spend several years in
the trenches of retail guitar repair.   To build a guitar and not know
the first thing about fret work is like building a car and not knowing
that the tires need to be inflated or building a sailboat and not
knowing how to tie a knot.   Fretwork is absolutely the most basic
stuff there is, and knowing how to do it should either precede building
a guitar or you should be building under the watchful eye of an
"Official Luthier.", was not an answer, but an opinion that did not point to anything except go get your help somewhere else.  While it did not bother me, and Rick is certainly entitled to his opinion, and to express it as he pleases, responses of this type will probably always rankle someone.  I'm sure he is correct in what he said, but it sure sounded to me like "That's a dumb question.  If you are going to build a guitar you should already know all that stuff."

That said, participating in this forum, requires that we not be insulted when someone does express his/her opinions bluntly.  We either pay attention or not.  Someone else will always step up and give a helping hand, and having the opinions and information from those who have "been in the trenches" is valuable to all of us.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Likewise, the more experienced builders would certainly interest the vast majority with their time-proven techniques or something new and exciting. The possibilities are endless and I believe that would attract a lot of interest and participation.
[/QUOTE]

Pat,

I'm really looking forward to the host of new topics initiated by the "master luthiers" here doing what you so succinctly said . . . as opposed to the occasional hand grenade lobbed into others posts. In fact I'm starting an OLF count of them right now so that Bob Connor can maybe add them as another section to his fab log - maybe under Master Classes.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

The edit button would have let me add ... like Mark Blanchards one on contoured heels for a cutaway

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=Dave White] The edit button would have let me add ... like Mark Blanchards one on contoured heels for a cutaway [/QUOTE]

Tony Karol's info on 'armrest' construction was a good one.

I'm waiting for the Rick Turner photos on how he builds his buttressed neck block with the CF supports, and details of how he braces the upper bout........

Cheers
John

I definitely think that the hardest thing about building guitars is the fretting and setup. (I have only built 2 - the first came out excellent and I am still playing with the setup on the 2nd and still not happy with it, so the first was probably beginner's luch !). So, I appreciate Rick's point about apprenticeships. However, I will not be doing that. I am aware that if I wanted to do it professionally then that is what I'd do. However, I am building for myself and loving the guitars I have produced - I will just try to learn from others, from books, from the internet and do the best I can to improve with the time I can afford to spend on building.
Also, I really do not find his tone aggressive or blunt - it's a reasonable point made quite tersely. I think we have to remember that email and forum posts can appear more aggressive than they are meant.

Cheers,
Andy

So far it looks to me like the luthiers who have taken the time to learn the basics tend to agree with my point of view, and the folks who haven't taken the time to get setup skills and fretwork down pat tend to be annoyed, impatient with the process, and are quick to take offense to my comments.   How interesting...

Guys, you've got to pay to play at some point, and you'll never be able to make good excuses for bad setup work to a real guitar player. I don't care if you never want to take a dime for guitar building or repair work; if you can't cut it then no amount of whining about the mean old luthiers bad attitude is going to make your work better. There are very clear and known ways to improve your skills; it's like practicing anything. You're not going to improve your golf swing talking about your new Calloway driver; you're not going to play Minor Swing better typing on a Gypsy Swing forum; and you're not going to be able to run a 5 K sitting on your ass watching TV. If you want to do good fret work, get out there and do it, and many of you will never build enough guitars to get enough practice at it. That's one of the reasons to do repair work.

Go make a deal with a music store...fretwork and setups on their stock instruments in exchange for store credit. Go do some volunteer repair work for a school guitar program like Guitars in the Classroom www.guitarsintheclassroom.com Go get your hands on dozens of guitars and make them play better even if those guitars are Asian junk that you disdain. Get off your high horses of lutherie and get into the "street". Work on electrics, acoustics, ukes, basses, and the high and low of it and inspect the work of dozens of factories and figure out what works and what doesn't.

There aren't any shortcuts to this other than what is already available to you...books, articles, the Internet, videos, and live and in the flesh mentors...the pro luthiers working in retail environments or in their own shops and doing this stuff for a living. If you're too lazy to take advantage of the enormous amount of information that is already there for you to read and see without even having to ask, then heaven help you...

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] So far it looks to me like the luthiers who have taken the time to learn the basics tend to agree with my point of view, and the folks who haven't taken the time to get setup skills and fretwork down pat tend to be annoyed, impatient with the process, and are quick to take offense to my comments.   How interesting...[/QUOTE]
Oh, interesting indeed. I guess that since I took offense to your comments, that means I don't know anything about fretwork. And what I find truly remarkable is that you KNOW that I don't have my fretwork "down pat".
Rick, that comment speaks volumes or your arrogance. It says, "If you agree with me and do what I say, you can be part of my "club". If you don't agree with me, then you are a hack builder that doesn't know what he's talking about." Give me a break!
I know my views are less that popular here. But I fail to see that just because you are the infamous Rick Turner, you have the right to be rude and belittle other builders.

Paul, I find it utterly incredible that you should take my last post so personally. I have no idea what you know or don't know about fretwork or anything else, for that matter, and I never singled you out for anything, be it gentle criticism, a suggestion, or praise. Are you disagreeing with my basic premise or are you so offended by me that you don't care what the message is as long as you can attack the messenger?

Note my use of the word "tend".   That is a modifier that indicates a trend...and that trend is quite real. We have some folks here who are making excuses...or presenting reasons...why they haven't learned or don't intend to take the time to learn what I consider to be the most basic of lutherie tasks...making the instrument play well. I have made numerous suggestions how they might remedy their lack of those skills. And I've caught a major ration of bull for suggesting that some improvements might be indicated in the old craftsmanship department or that skill sets might stand re-prioritization if one is to be taken seriously as a "luthier."

What I am saying is that there are luthiers who understand the very real necessity of learning basics and there are those builders who are impatient with that whole process and who seem to want to be considered "luthiers" without caring about whether their work IS good as long as it LOOKS good and they can get their egos stroked on Internet forums. If you are suggesting that I should support the wankers' club, you're off base. Get real about this craft, please, and understand that it's the players who really count.

If what I've said in my more critical mode does not apply to you, then butt out and don't bother to read or react to my posts. I happen to think that some appreciate a wakeup call, and whether you like it or not, I have the experience to justify being the caller on that subject. Why should I pretend to just be one of the plain folks when I've put my ass on the line for over forty years to learn, get better, and to seek out knowledge in this field? Like me or not, I am a senior guitar luthier on the scene, and I am quite willing to share what I know with folks who are willing to meet me half way. That half way means doing basic homework.

The level of hypersensitivity here is astounding to me. No wonder some don't want to put their craftsmanship on the line; one complaint from a real customer would cause a meltdown and provide a therapist with years of work! :-)

What do you do if you sell a guitar to someone who brings it back for action work and you can't satisfy them? "Well, I've built eight guitars and therefore I'm a luthier and I must have done it right because I showed my fifth build on the Internet and everyone said it was beautiful and so I set up a website...and now I don't know how to fix a problem with number six..."   

That is not a hypothetical situation. I hear stuff like that all the time, especially since a lot of independent luthiers' guitars come through my shop for lacquering by Addam Stark. We hear it all, and we hear it sometimes from folks who are learning and other times from well established luthiers who hear that about work in their neighborhood that they are called upon to help fix.

Paul, tell me what is so wrong with learning basics? I can certainly enumerate what is wrong with not learning them, much to your evident distress...

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] So far it looks to me like the luthiers who have taken the time to learn the basics tend to agree with my point of view, and the folks who haven't taken the time to get setup skills and fretwork down pat tend to be annoyed, impatient with the process, and are quick to take offense to my comments.   How interesting...
[/QUOTE]

You must be right,Rick. I'm sure there's no other logical possibility.....

I've just got to remember to get off my luthier's 'high horse'.......

John

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Well Rick, in an effort to come to terms with this arguement I'll tell you that you are 100% correct about learning the basics. That is in no way my arguement with you. Yes, I've done my homework. I've studied under Charles, watched every D.E. video, read every word on lutherie I can get my hands on (yes, I've got all 4 red books), and studied fretwork/setup with a local repair guy. I'm not telling you this to brag or impress you. Quite honestly, I couldn't care less what you think of me as a builder. I am telling you this so you can stop accusing me of not learning the basics.
My problem is also not the fact that I'm hyper sensitive. I'd be pleased as punch to take any and all criticism about my guitars. I do infact seek that out from players, peers, and those that have been in the biz for a long time.
My problem is this: where you make it a point to tell everyone that will listen how long you've been building, I wouldn't consider you a seasoned vet on this forum. 105 posts in 2 years. A good share of those have been in the last week defending yourself.
Me? I am a seasoned vet to this forum. I've been here since the first month of it's existence. I know the ins and outs of personalities and how we act towards each other. With respect.
Your original post, which I had problems with, was clearly not respectful. Mark asked a question as to what could be causing his buzzing. A few folks chimed in with our thoughts as to what it might be. You know as well as I do that chasing down a buzz is a trial and error thing. Many things to try. You stated so in a post, that we couldn't diagnose it without it in our hands. You are right, but we could certainly be helpful and give some ideas as to where he could look. Rather than say, "go do your homework and come back when you know everything about fretwork", wouldn't it be more enouraging to try to offer some thoughts as to what it could possibly be?
Why not at least make some attempt to encourage new folks in this craft?
You just wrote, "Why should I pretend to just be one of the plain folks...". Wow, I don't even know how to respond to that. But if you might stoop so low as to take a bit of advice from a plain folk, I offer this: respect is earned, not demanded. You can't tell anyone to respect you. You have to wait for them to tell you. The fact that you have been been doing this longer than us plain folk does not make you a better person. You're poo still stinks the same way ours does.

Let's see if I have this right...

Suggesting that playability is perhaps the single most important aspect of lutherie = being on a high horse.

Suggesting that beginning luthiers do their homework = being mean and uncooperative.   

Suggesting that standards be higher here = being on an ego trip.

Pandering to a lowest common denominator = being nice.

I got a private message from someone who did some homework about the Official Luthiers' Forum. It seems that 71% of you are not professional luthiers, and that many of that majority have no intention of ever being in the business.   This is a hobby for you, plain and simple, and though many of you would like to and will sell an instrument every now and then, that is not a real issue for you. I'd venture to say that all you have on the line is the satisfaction of a job well done (at the highest level of it), or your self-esteem...another word for ego.

So I have a suggestion for those of you in that 71% crowd who are offended by my pretty hard nosed attitude re. professionalism.   Just ignore me.   Pay no mind to anything I have to say in any thread here. I am more interested in communicating to and with people who are truly serious about learning lutherie as a craft in service to musicians than I am wanting to just be in a praise band for folks who are going to pick and choose their hobby interests based on bling and making things that look like nice guitars.

You want to talk fretwork? Let's do it, but let's really get down to it with no excuses about why you can't get your hands on enough guitars to get the skills into your hands. You want to talk bracing, modes of vibration response, tricky repair jobs? Fine, there are a number of us here who have that dreaded experience to talk about this stuff. On another forum I once saw someone ream Al for answering a question on top vibration; that someone said basically that they didn't understand Al's answer...which was as simple and clear as could be written. The guy was a lazy twit who didn't want to learn the vocabulary needed to understand the principles involved, and he blamed Al for giving up a correct answer that he couldn't understand.    Don't resent those of us who do have experience and are willing to talk about it. If you're serious about this craft, you will eventually have 30 or 40 years of experience, too. Don't resent the fact that I've earned a good reputation in the business and that in some circles I'm well known. I paid my dues for that many times over, believe me. And believe also that I don't come here for my own ego. That is well taken care of by the clients who play my guitars and like them and order them. I'm here in the hope that we can all raise the standards of our craft and make better instruments.     

A drywall screw for a fret marker. Dang the good ideas always escape me.
Hesh, your new fretboard is brilliant in every sense of the word.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]
So I have a suggestion for those of you in that 71% crowd who are offended by my pretty hard nosed attitude re. professionalism.   Just ignore me.   Pay no mind to anything I have to say in any thread here. I am more interested in communicating to and with people who are truly serious about learning lutherie as a craft in service to musicians than I am wanting to just be in a praise band for folks who are going to pick and choose their hobby interests based on bling and making things that look like nice guitars.
[/QUOTE]
I'm so very confused. One of those 71% is the person that started this thread and that you jumped on. If he is to ignore you, then why did you waste your time posting?
I have a question for you and then I'll let this whole thing die. This is an honest question in no way meant to ask you to leave. But why are you here? If the topics at hand are so below your level, what do you have to gain by being here? Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate your wisdom and have learned a great deal from the many articles I've read, but what is it about this place that makes you want to be here? For me, and many others here, it's the fact that we can hang out with plain folk and talk about guitars without getting at each other's throats. What is it for you? (this is an honest question, not in any way sarcastic)

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]   I'm here in the hope that we can all raise the standards of our craft and make better instruments.     

[/QUOTE]

I AM VERY GRATEFUL . THANKYOU

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

Paul, there is something implicit in the title of this forum..."The Official Luthier's Forum"...that I found interesting. I thought, "Official Luthiers'... hmmm, with a title like that, it that sounds like it's meant for pros and dedicated amateurs. Maybe I've finally found a place where a professional attitude will be encouraged, my peers will be exchanging the latest tips and tools, and there will be a real attitude of improving the state of the art." I may have joked about the title, but if this is the official luthier's forum, then shouldn't there be an absolute striving for excellence here?   Or is this just another MIMF where self-congratulations is encouraged and you'd better not post anything like the URL of a supplier you found or the URL to your own website or that of someone like Frank Ford because the ivory tower might get dirty.

So what I'm getting from you, Paul, is that one should not put on airs here and strive for a higher level of excellence; one should not hold beginners responsible for doing homework because they may just be hobbyists. Everybody is equal here, and experience isn't worth much and may just indicate that one is too famous.

Let's get back to basics about this very thread. In my opinion, one should do basic research, basic learning, and get in some basic practice on things like fret work, nut and saddle making, etc. at the beginning of a lutherie education. I think that if you do that, A) your first guitar will be much better because you'll build it having some clue as to what it's supposed to feel like, and B) You'll be able to ask questions at a higher level, and that is important because C) There's no way in hell that any of us can adequately diagnose bad fretwork over the Internet. In my opinion, the whole premise of this thread is an unsolvable paradoxical situation. If the builder had learned how to do good fretwork and understood basic diagnosis...skills that are not hard to acquire through all the usual sources...there would be no need for this question in the first place. To me the very question brought to the forefront a basic problem in how I see many people learning and approaching lutherie...an approach that I think of as bass-ackwards.

But you bring up a good point...what's in it here for me?

Maybe nothing. I'll have to ponder that. So far Al has been the most instructive person for me here, but I can just call him or email him off-line and not have to deal with a lot of noise. I'll stop posting for a while and    spend some time thinking about all this.

In the meanwhile, some of you may want to check out the Mandolin Cafe builders/repairers forum. You'll find the most experienced luthiers in all of mandolin building over there, and there is what I feel is the kind of exchange among experts that I'd like to see about guitars either here or somewhere else.   There is no lowest common denominator stuff going on, and nobody is trying to impose Mando 101 on anyone. Beginners are made very welcome, but the folks over there do not suffer fools lightly. You think I'm bad...well, you'd better have done at least some homework over there if you're going to post.   

I appreciate Rick's relentless hounding about the importance of fretwork and setup. This thread (and the two parallel ones) have not really taught me any new and useful techniques, but they have made me place a greater focus and priority on improving these aspects of my building, which is a far more important lesson. As a hobbyist, I don't have the time to do all the things Rick suggests, but I will certainly find all the opportunities I can to do fretwork and setup for friends and neighbors, even if I have to do it for free.

It is clear that some people have taken offense at Rick's comments. I'm not one of them, but I can understand why others are. Contrary to Rick's suggestion, I don't think people are offended by the substance of Rick's comments as much as the tone. Some of his word choice does come off a bit abrasive.

So, as long as we're all handing out advice, here's mine. For the people who are offended by Rick's comments, I'll tell you what I tell my kids when their brothers call them names and hurt their feelings: Buck up! ;) Seriously, though, I think that even the very capable and experienced luthiers here can probably learn some things from Rick (and Rick can probably learn some things from them) if everyone can put on their armor and focus on what they can learn from Rick's comments.

And for Rick, I think he could probably work on avoiding some of the abrasive comments and phrases that rub people the wrong way and, frankly, aren't essential to the points he is making. I'm sure we could all work on that. But if he is not interested in improving that aspect of his communication skills, I'll still read his posts with an eager eye --- this thread has proven to me that, if you can peel back the rough exterior, he is sharing some valuable insights.

Wow!  I feel like saying what is wrong with some of you people, but I won't.  Rick often responds with what the questioner needs to hear, but it may be not what some folks want to hear.  From there it digresses into an ad hominem attack on Rick for being right, but to blunt?  WTF?

Yes, I'm one of the 71%, but that doesn't mean I want to do crap work, or for that matter build anything less than first class, professional level guitars.  And if I have to take the occasional slap up side the head from Rick, then fine! 

I took Charles Fox's course recenlty and certainly had some moments during the week where it was like "you didn't really ask that stupid question did you" - in a round about way, and was I more than happy to pay $1000 (plus the hotel and travel costs) for the privilege.  If you just listen a bit you will pick up on subtleties of advanced theory from the seasoned luthiers that post here that you just won't get anywhere else, and most certainly not for free. Granted you'll get a dose of "pay your dues" comments along the way, but so what? 
We're sure getting more than we paid for.

So the choice is clear, the OLF can be a community dedicated to finite, self imposed limits - prep school - or we can park the drama at the door and occasionly get to audit some grad school dissertations.