Official Luthiers Forum!

Start your own forum, Rick.    "The Official, Perfect, Arrogant, Lutherier's Forum".

This forum IS lutherie 101 (and more). This forum was created to share ideas and help each other along. If you are so far above that, then I suggest that you are in the wrong place.       

Many, if not most, members on this forum came because they wanted to create their own guitar, not because they want to make a living at it. Anyone with the heart to do so, can create a very good guitar without serving a 10 year apprenticeship.   I am thankful that we have world-class luthiers on this forum who give freely of themselves without looking down on those who haven't reached their level.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

With all due respect Ron, I don't believe the vast majority of OLFers would agree with your wish to banish a 40+ year experienced luthier. IMO, he has valid opinions and should be entitled to express them. Rick has explained his position and should be respected.

A similar atrocity was done by "well-intententioned" members to Mario almost a year ago and I believe it was one of our community's worst moments. We lost a valuable contributor as a result. I would hate to see that practice repeated.

I personally would like to raise the bar for rookies and experienced builders alike. If you wish to have the forum remain static then I would suggest that you examine your rationale.

Respectfully...JJ

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I'm new here, and I probably have not done all my homework, but I'm here, and I like hearing from everyone, including those who are not afraid to tell it like it is.  We have to quit wearing our feelings on our shirt sleeves around here.  Suck it up and pay attention to the advice.  I have not done all the stuff Rick recommends, but I have re-setup every guitar  I have owned (probably 10 -12 over the last 20+ years), and have refretted one.  Every one I worked on is much better than it was when I got it.  That's not to say that what I did was right, but that working in these basic areas does teach you a lot about how everything works together to make a good playing guitar.  I learned a lot, but have never had to set up a new guitar, and still have yet to set up one I have built.  Guess I'll find out when I get there.  I still have an awful lot to learn.  I don't have to like, or listen to, any advice I don't want to, and I refuse to let someone else ruin my life because they said something I don't like.  Hey, "Sticks and Stones..."

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Relax folks. I think Rick was just being very truthful in his original post. I'll have to admit that his jesting about the name of the forum had my dander up for a bit. Then I stopped and thought about it for a bit and realized that it is just a name, so big deal. More important though, it made me reevaluate my own short comings (which I now plan to remedy).    

Whenever we are fortunate enough to have the likes of Mario, Al, Rick Turner and others stop by our forum, we should be grateful. We might not always like what they have to say, but you have to admit that it is the voice of experience. Think of what we would not have gained in the last week in the discussion of cf braces, buttress neck bracing, and the role of the upper bout! I always save every tidbit I can get from these folks for later when I can potentially use it. We can't learn if we keep running off the teachers.

On the other side, this forum has always been about providing help and information to others regardless of their skill level. I think one of the goals of this forum was to not continually post "Search the Archives" in response to questions. If you will notice, after I saw Rick's post, I went right ahead and recommended some sources of information on fretting. For many of us, this forum is as close as we will come (whether due to time, money, etc.) to real lutherie training. Provide what you can and what you have time to provide. Rick and I both provided important information, we just went about it differently.

Just my 2 cents, and check my new tag line

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Ok, so Rick kicked us in a sensitive spot -- ego. But he is absolutely correct. Having a good understanding of the basic skills is critical.

I see nothing wrong with the original post insofar as it is a place where information or reference material can be suggested.

But I also see nothing wrong with one of the senior members of our craft grounding everyone -- even if it comes at the expense of a punch to the ego.

Honestly, that is a price I am willing to pay to get better. There is no progess without struggle, and IMNSHO that sometimes requires leaving our ego at the door.

I think the objection is that Rick was blunt, but like it or not, he is right. I would rather have him be blunt and teach me something, rather than stroke my ego and never progress.

just my .02 worth.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

As a noob with no serious aspirations for turning pro, I appreciate Rick's candor and advice, just as I used to appreciate Mario's. Compliments and encouragement are great, but they lose their value/effectiveness when handed out so easily. I think this forum would do well to establish an environment that's more accepting of honest criticism and blunt advice.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I once worked for an old German Sausage maker, and he told me " you will never work for a harder person, ever!"

He was right. 28 year and several jobs later, his was the hardest - but - working for Hans taught me many valuable lessons. He taught me life lessons. And they weren't easy, but I am glad he was there for me when I was a young man. I look at things different now.

Guys I agree, I am thrilled that Rick has decided to participate here.
Rick comes from the school of hard knocks and has plowed and paved that road that we are know coasting down in our comfortable (internet) vehicles.

Tough medicine is hard to take, but it - IS - good medicine none the less!

Lance

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

There certainly is a lot of buzzzing here. Just wondering, did Mark ever correctly diagnose the buzzing on his guitar? I hope to learn the outcome without reading the entire encyclopedia.
chris

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

[QUOTE=Chris Oliver] There certainly is a lot of buzzzing here. Just wondering, did Mark ever correctly diagnose the buzzing on his guitar? I hope to learn the outcome without reading the entire encyclopedia.chris[/QUOTE]

The lessons learned on this thread as well as the "Rice Thread" may have turned out to be far more important than its original intent.

I'm sure the diagnosis and cure of Mark's buzz will be forthcoming.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

To summarize a previous post, yes the buzzing went away. The problem was with a high fret (or two). After leveling the frets, it was still buzzing. I let it sit overnight, and tried it this morning and the buzzing was gone. I will need to go back and dress (crown) the frets now.

Mark

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] So Lance - tell us how to make sausage? [/QUOTE]

DON'T tell us....

I like sausage and want to continue to eat it.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I swore to myself when I came here I was going to stick to lutherie topics and not get involved in drama but I guess promises are made to be broken.

I lurked here for several months before ever posting.  I resisted posting for so long because of a seemingly constant string of distracting drama that I didn't care to be involved in.  I started posting because, as Rick said, the internet has this incredible potential for information sharing and some of that potential is certainly realized here.

I disagree with Rick that one should exhaust other avenues of learning before coming here.  First, I'm a cheapskate and seeing how books and videos get pretty spendy, I think this is a very economical place to start looking for answers, even if it's only to get ideas on the best book or video to get.  But I also agree that this community could be more useful and more appealing to more people if folks were not so quick to take offense.

That said, I also think that, if it is the goal of the experienced veterans to help the less experienced (why else would you be here?), then it would be worth their time to realize that this is a diverse group and putting some energy into saying things in a way that can be accepted by the easily offended would be a benefit to all.  A prime example of this is Alan Carruth.  I don't know him persaonally but I sure appreciate the way he puts his thougths down with humility.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=Hesh1956] So Lance - tell us how to make sausage? [/QUOTE]

DON'T tell us....

I like sausage and want to continue to eat it.    [/QUOTE]
Do you know how Blood sasuage and head cheese are made? You dont eat that do ya

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

And for the pros like Rick that we are very fortunate enough to have here it has to be tedious to be asked about thermonuclear physics 101 when what flips their switch these days is higher yield detonations and that last possible 5% of tone that only the true pros learn through a life time of study to glean from a guitar.

[/QUOTE]

As the politicians say, this is a 'frank and wide-ranging discussion', and I have little to add. However, there are a few points that I haven't seen mentioned, which Hesh's comment raised in my mind:

Nobody is 'required' or 'expected' to reply to a posted question. When you find a question that doesn't interest you, you needn't post a reply. Usually others (perhaps less illustrious or experienced than you) will pile in and help out the questioner. Of course, some of these questions can pose an unbearable temptation to drone on about " the way I learned is the only way", "the good old days when overbearing masters beat and belittled apprentices for years", blah, blah, blah...

On the other hand, when an 'advanced' question is posed, some of the experts strangely clam up! Vague generalities and references to 'secret', 'patented' 'copyright' processes, suddenly appear in place of usable information. True, open sharing of advanced information (as exemplified by Alan Carruth-Thank you!) is not that common anywhere- even when you pay for it in a 'course' environment. We shouldn't expect too much in a free online forum.

That said, I'm very grateful for the time that experienced luthiers contribute to the forum. If there's any way that hackers like me can repay the favour (aside from buying one of the expert's guitars!), I hope they'll let us know.

Cheers
John

Either I missed it or over read it but the first task to alleviate the problem is to locate the problem. That said I have to say the only way to do that is to know the fretting, neck setting and intonation process. There are many things that can cause the problem finding the problem and or problems is essential to solving them. Just starting over is not the best idea. Odds are good that you will recreate the issues and or create new ones.

Lets take a look at the initial clues.

Plays good in open positions.
Buzzes when barred

The first thing this tells me is there is fret level, neck/ bridge set and or neck relief issues. But I have no way to diagnose the issue because I don't have the guitar at hand. Depending on verbal or written info is no way to diagnose the problems. I am pretty sure there is more than one.

As others have said a totally un-tensioned truss rod is not a good thing. That is a rattle waiting to happen. But I doubt it is the issue.

My best advise is to find a skilled luthier in your area and spend an evening with them locating the problems. once you know what the problems are then you can address them. Till then everything is a guess.

As far as the huff with Rick, everyone must understand he was giving info out as a coach would. It may ruffle your feathers a bit but what he said was true and sage advice and was not said with malaise but rather with concern. It may have read harsh but that did not make it less true.

    I worked for a guy by the name of Randy Story, an incredibly nice guy but a perfectionist. He ran me through the ringer, for which I do a lot better in most things now because of it, but the time came that I began to check Randy's work.

     Geesh, He kept none of his work parameters for others!

    One particular event resulting in me stating that I "checked his work", the look on his face told me everything I needed to know. I don't ever follow "the experts" blindly again.

     Everybody's learning, I'm absolutely sure I've stepped on some toes inadvertently, for which I am truely sorry but knowing the differences in approach some have, offence is imperative, and probably desirable! One can't learn to understand and forgive without being offended or even hated first.

     I saw nothing wrong in any of the comments made by anybody on this thread (except for Hesh calling me a freak'in butthead under his breath, I'll get you for that Bub!! ... )!

     Well... except for Rick not wanting things all kissy-kissy too!

     There are guys here with the greatest of expertise and guys that have a hard time holding a chisel right and as I understand it they're all supposed to be here!

    Now that I feel like a big enough hypocrite, even I can't stand it, I'll shut up now!           

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

[QUOTE=Billy T]     I worked for a guy by the name of Randy Story, an incredibly nice guy but a perfectionist. He ran me through the ringer, for which I do a lot better in most things now because of it...           [/QUOTE]

I realize I took this out of context, but it makes so much more sense to me this way.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Rick Turner wrote:
"Take this guitar to a pro luthier who can diagnose it in hand. Nobody here really knows why it's buzzing because they can't see and play the guitar."

First: I'm happy to read that the OP got the problem fixed.

Second: Rick's right in that there is no better way to learn setup than by doing a lot of it. That's not possible for many people, of course, and I think Rick understands that as well as anybody. If you are one of those who has not had the opportunity to take that road, PLEASE don't give a lot of grief to the guys like Rick who have, and are, in their way, trying to be helpful.

The fact is that guitars are pretty complicated machines, and all the more so because they don't look it. Until you've been at it for a while you might not believe all the different ways a guitar can buzz, or the fact that the place where the sound seems to come from can have nothing at all to do with the source of the buzz. I've seen guitars that buzzed because the bridge wasn't heavy enough, because of loose parts on the tuners, out-of-round strings, and sabotage (not the issue here, I'm sure, but...). There's even a sort of buzz that is intrisic in certain strings, which, in themselves, have nothing wrong with them, but simply relates to the way they vibrate and the particular scale length (Hint: every note on that string buzzes, and another string of the same brand and weight doesn't).

On another list I'm on, somebody solicited all of the different things that people have found that cause buzzes. Iirc they stopped at over a hundred. There were still more coming in. We can hit the 'usual suspects' on a list like this, but that will leave out 95% of the possibilites. Even though they may be less common, they still could be 'the cause'.

One of the things you learn after a while is a bit of humility in the face of this sea of interacting unknowns. I don't have quite as much experience as Rick does, but I know enough to know how little I know. That's why I'm here, and I bet that's why Rick is, too. I'm always happy when I can help out the folks who need it, and the useful tips I pick up are worthwhile. Nobody can ever know everything about the guitar. It's like quantum mechanics: if you think you understand it, you're wrong.

So, this time it seems to have been one of the usual suspects. Great. As Han Solo said to Luke:"Don't get cocky". Wait'll you hit the one that uses up a couple of days work and it's still there.

Short story that somewhat applies....

The first guitar I ever made was the first guitar of any sorts I ever worked
on. To put it very nicely my first guitar was the most, without a doubt
ugliest, most crude glued together pile of nice woods I've ever seen.

I see guys posting first instruments now-days that look a quadrillion
times better than mine. My first guitar did not intonate correctly (thanks
to my lack of understanding of compensation) the action was crazy high
(thanks to my lack of understanding of neck angles), and it buzzed all
over the place even with high action (thanks to my lack of understanding
of fretwork).

It took me building 20 guitars or so until I finally started getting a grip
on fretwork, and it is still no walk in the park now after 11 years and
roughly 800 guitars later. Fretwork is of the utmost importance.
Fretboard leveling makes or breaks the fretwork. Fretboard leveling
hinges on flat neckshafts.

While I've only met Rick on time briefly at healdsburg 05 and I enjoyed
chatting for a second with him and playing a uke of his he does speak
with lots of experience. And I'd take experience over eagerness anyday.

I too find it crazy that these days we so many guys putting out their
shingle saying they make world class guitars after only building a few.
I've seen many many guys with the idea that after 6 months or so of
building they got what it takes to build and sell thier guitars... I tried that
and I'm not ashamed to say I was a friggin idiot for believing I could do
that....no one can... Not with a lot of good experience behind them and
many many mistakes made.

Now on the flip side we all do have to start somewhere. I disagree with
Rick to the extent that I think this should be a place for 101 questions as
well as advanced ones alike. Again we all have to start somewhere, and
what better place than places like this. If nothing else we can just help
with what we can, or link them to frets.com, whatever.

So lets keep the discussion going, keep our limitations known, and keep
our minds open to learn.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Wow, the drama here never ends.

Imagine how much further we'd all progress if we had another dozen or so guys like Rick to give us all a reality check from time to time.

As to the rice thing on the other thread. A luthiers rice is humility.

It's not a habit of mine to jump into these heated threads, but I couldn't stay quiet for this one.

What gets my dander up is that there was a good discussion going here about how ms might solve a problem with buzzing, and it seemed he was getting his questions answered.

Then Rick Turner came along waving a flag about how everyone who was serious about learning to build guitars should spend a few years at a repair bench. Yes, that's a great start for someone who plans to spend the next 40 years of their life building guitars as great as I suspect his are. But not many people are able to do that or are not willing to make such a sacrifice for a hobby, which is where I think a good many of us are going with our building. Granted, a lot of us, myself included, are awe-stricken by the idea that we can produce something that even remotely resembles an instrument.

I have no doubt that Rick Turner has a huge body of knowledge that he'd like to share, but it rankles if his belittling manner with beginners here and elsewhere is to be excused because of his stature as a builder. If the tone of his remarks were present in a post by one of us mere apprentices, I think someone would have said something and rightly so. But for us to let it slide because he's Rick Turner does a disservice to everyone here despite what he has to offer.

We could well end up losing members whose questions he deems unacceptable. Is this possibility a means for raising this forum to a level he finds acceptable ? Should we strive for that? This forum is what it is. If it's 101, then that's what it's become. I and I think, many others like it that way. If Rick Turner has been granted some license to turn this forum into something else, that's another thing entirely. But I don' think that's the case.

Sorry, but when experts post expecting to get the respect that they themselves do not show others, I just can't let it pass.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com