Official Luthiers Forum!

I think these liners are fantastic looking. Whether they are better or not makes no difference because that is a question that cannot be answered.

Brock is going after a rock solid rim. Don is commenting on wonderful sounding guitars that have almost nothing for liners, just a small kerfed strip of wood, leaving the sides very flexible. BOTH make great guitars, or should I say, BOTH can be used in making great guitars.
Its more about that maker than the liner

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=Arnt] Brock, do you mean these will make the finished box stronger, or that the rim assembly will be stronger during construction? If it is the latter I am sure you are right, but as I said in my first post (regarding traditional kerfed linings) Once the box I closed the plates will lock the joint in their plane; if there was any movement in that joint the lining would have to distort or the joint would have to open.   The say I see it, what influences the strength of this joint in the finished instrument is the outside dimension of the linings; the size of the "constructive triangle" if you will, not whether this triangle is continuous (as in the various types of solid linings) or in shorter sections; statically these will all act the same in the complete construction. [/QUOTE]


I am trying to stay out of the "better" discussion. We all know there are multiple ways to build. Some say light, some say heavy, some say light sides, some say stiff sides...

However, if you are just looking at the rim assemblies and their overall stiffness there is an incredible difference between regular linings and capped linings. It is more than "slight".

Double sides, coupled with Fox style linings produce a rim assembly so stiff that you could build the rest of the guitar outside the mold. They don't move or flex at all.

Again... I am not making a value statement... just sharing observations...   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

There is always many different opinions like Brock said.
My opinion opinion is that I believe once the box is closed the difference is minimal and I strive for a easier install more flexible lining that looks a lot better once you peak in. IMO lighter is better and the visual aspect is very important to a customer too.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

What Brock said certainly works...being able to assemble outside a mold has its advantages. I'm actually tempted to try the double sides thing myself. As Lance said, there's no one right way to do it, and there are many roads that lead to the same result. Choose which one you like best and have fun doing it!

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I am certainly not saying one is better than the other, and I am only commenting on the stiffness of traditional kerfed linings versus other types linings with the same outside dimensions in finished instruments.

Brock (and others), I get the feeling you fail to see the difference between how the rim assembly behaves before and after the plates are glued on. Without the plates, the rim assembly with traditional "open kerf" linings glued on is very flexible, in fact only marginally stiffer than the sides before the linings are on. This is because the kerfs in the lining will open and close if you press the sides as there is nothing connecting them except the thin web. However, once the plates are glued on, they become connected, and voila! For all practical purposes you could have just filled the kerfs, because they can now not open or close AT ALL. They are rock solid, and statically act just like solid linings. You can think of it as a torsion box, where the plate is one of the skins; remove one skin and the box folds.

I am sure there are advantages to a rim assembly that is very stiff once the linings are glued on, in fact I am tempted to make some solid / laminated , it can look sharp! I do however not think they are any stiff than any other type of lining. I have not seen any explanation in this tread or any other place that has convinced me otherwise.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[QUOTE=Arnt]Brock (and others), I get the feeling you fail to see the difference between how the rim assembly behaves before and after the plates are glued on. Without the plates, the rim assembly with traditional "open kerf" linings glued on is very flexible, in fact only marginally stiffer than the sides before the linings are on. This is because the kerfs in the lining will open and close if you press the sides as there is nothing connecting them except the thin web. However, once the plates are glued on, they become connected, and voila! For all practical purposes you could have just filled the kerfs, because they can now not open or close AT ALL. They are rock solid, and statically act just like solid linings. You can think of it as a torsion box, where the plate is one of the skins; remove one skin and the box folds.

I am sure there are advantages to a rim assembly that is very stiff once the linings are glued on, in fact I am tempted to make some solid / laminated , it can look sharp! I do however not think they are any stiff than any other type of lining. I have not seen any explanation in this tread or any other place that has convinced me otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Trust me.. I get your point. And I don't see anything *wrong* with regular triangle or reverse linings. I think they are fine. I understand that when the top and back are on it makes the whole system much stiffer.

This is the statement that I was commenting on.

[QUOTE=Arnt] ...and I still say that traditional kerfed lingings will make the box just as strong as any other type of lining, provided the outside dimensions are the same.[/QUOTE]

And my point was that if you build a rim with the capped linings I think you would change your POV on this. I was very surprised about how much stiffer the rim is with these type of linings.

I use them, and I like them -- I have definite ideas about why you would want stiff sides, but I fully recognize that there are other paths to getting great sounding guitars. So I am not making a value statement about one methodology or one type of lining is better than another.

It was just an observation.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I don't know what capped lingings are. Can someone help me out.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.

I will try a couple sets

I?d like to give them a try, too.

Me too...............

                  Red

Hi Dave,
           Capped linings are a two piece arrangement. Charles Fox introduced this idea.

Here is a pic of mine ;




I used Walnut for the kerfed part and Tasmanian Sassafras for the capping as a contrast.

Cheers, Craig Lawrence

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

Dave, Here is another more detailed pic of the fox liners ( NOT MINE )

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

I'm building two guitars at the moment with only one mold. I've got two rim assemblies completed. One has reversed kerf linings (mahogany with a bit of spring back to the sides) the other has the more traditional triangular kerfed linings (EIR with almost no spring back).

My observation is that I can leave the reversed kerf mahogany rim out of the mold for extended periods and it keeps it's shape, which is lucky 'cause the EIR rim moves quite a bit and has to stay in the mold until the back and top are on.

So for making a batch of guitars. I can see pretty clearly that the stiffer rim has it's advantages from a builders perspective. As to the effect on the resulting guitar; I don't have enough experience to know which is better.

But those A4 linings do look nice.

Where do you guys get your capped linnings? or do you make your own?
If you make your own what dimensions are they

Thanks!

_________________
Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

Arnt, I completely agree with you. In my opinion all the extra lining material is unnecessary for final stiffness of the assembled box, and I am thinking that with all the added capping etc, there is a danger of making that area that we really do want to flex (that top side joint) too stiff to allow for relaxed vibrations.

One way solid linings are stronger after the plates are on is that there is more glue surface area.  Those spaces add up.  Also, should the guitar get dropped, solid linings are many times stronger in sheer than kerfed.  Imagine chiseling out a brace recess in kerfed linings.  The pieces easily split right off.  Not that we should build our guitars to get dropped but it happens.

Also, as others have mentioned, I too noticed an increase in power when I switched form kerfed to solid.

But for kerfed linings, those do look slick.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

I am sure interested in giving these a try.

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Thanks Craig. Is looks like they would be add some strength.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.

G'day Zac,
            The only dimensions I can give you are the ones I made ,which are 25 m.m. X 7 m.m. for the main kerfed part. I then take out 19m.m. X 2 m.m. for the capping.
The Charles fox ones may differ slightly in dimensions.
Paul Woolson made some up for fellow Olfers some time ago.
Hope this helps.

Cheers, Craig

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

[QUOTE=Kent Chasson]

One way solid linings are stronger after the plates are on is that there is more glue surface area. Those spaces add up. Also, should the guitar get dropped, solid linings are many times stronger in sheer than kerfed. Imagine chiseling out a brace recess in kerfed linings. The pieces easily split right off. Not that we should build our guitars to get dropped but it happens.

Also, as others have mentioned, I too noticed an increase in power when I switched form kerfed to solid.

But for kerfed linings, those do look slick.

[/QUOTE]

Kent,
while many would assume that a solid lining would be more impact resistant than kerfed linings, that is not all true... the more rigid it its the more damage the guitar will sustain upon impact. Kinda like crumple zones on a car.... with a strong hit the kerfed linings will give and break in the weaker areas or flex more thus absorbing impact rather than distributing it.

While majority of builders don't build with impact resistance in mind I believe lighter guitars is a goal many have in mind while building better guitars with a strong emphasis on the visual appeal. I think Kevin Ryan has done a fine job on both areas.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I'd be interested in purchasing a few lengths of the A4, but it may be
problematic for me to have the linings looking nicer than the oustide.
Maybe I can put them on the exterior? 

[QUOTE=RHYANK] I'd be interested in purchasing a few lengths of the A4, but it may be
problematic for me to have the linings looking nicer than the oustide.
Maybe I can put them on the exterior?
[/QUOTE]

Thats funny

At Emile Barons violin shop in Atlanta, there was a viola de gamba in their window that was about the size of an upright bass. The linings were on the outside of this instrument. They were solid and cut with an ogee shape in cross section, and very pretty. I have no idea how that was done.

John

[/QUOTE]
Kent,
while many would assume that a solid lining would be more impact resistant than kerfed linings, that is not all true... the more rigid it its the more damage the guitar will sustain upon impact. Kinda like crumple zones on a car.... with a strong hit the kerfed linings will give and break in the weaker areas or flex more thus absorbing impact rather than distributing it. [/QUOTE]

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Peter,
Any update on this?

Thanks,
Tom