Official Luthiers Forum!

Ok

If we had a critique page I think a few things would help it work and maintain civility

1. only the person submitting the works name, user name or info be shown.
2. one posting by whom ever wished to critique
3. no reply by the submitter.
4. all remarks be directed directly to product only

This would allow someone to get honest feedback without stirring personal conflicts. Kind of like a pole. No back and forth. Just a submittal and review process.
If the submitter wanted to ask questions then he or she could return to the main discussion forum and as direct questions that we all could respond to.

If possible I think something on this order would be a great tool. but to keep the personal out of it response to the critique and identity of the critique must be avoided.

I have seen this kind of system work in the real world. the trick is making it work here.

A poll dummie your right Hesh

MichaelP,
    I agree and think that if we direct our criticism toward oursellves and
our own work first, we can not only maintain humility, but also become
gracious, humble critics of the ork of others.

   That's the problem with some of these guys who openly humiliate
others with their comments. Every time one of them speaks, whether in
conversation or in type, they make it a point to praise themselves as often
as they criticize others. I've been accused by some builders of having a
"group hug" mentality concerning my peers and competitors, but would
much rather have that reputation than one of being unfair and
unprofessional.

   Imagine that...i've been accused of being too nice by a couple of other
builders. I just consider the source and take it from there.

   I've offered constructive criticism to several young or beginning
builders...but only after they asked me to. Believe it or not, it's possible to
be tactful and kind and still make a deep impact on the person you're
trying to help.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Interesting points all. I appreciate some good criticism, but frankly, I doubt anyone's a harsher critic of my own work than I am myself. I'm actuely aware of the flaws, the bits that need improvement, the bits where mistakes have been hidden more or less skillfully, and so on.

If someone asks for honest critique, I'm happy to provide it, as long as it remains constructive and balanced. Critique is not the same thing as criticism.

Honesty is the best policy.We are all big grown up people,we should be able to except constructive criticism.But we can be tactful at the same time.And for some of us who can`t. As my granny used to say "If you don`t have any thing nice to say ,than just shut up".For me it would be very hard to comment on someone elses work ,just by looking at pictures.When I was in Ann Arbor I went to meet David Collins,and was very much impressed by his candor.I had ole # 1 with me ,and I think he enjoyed going over it with a pretty good look and play.He had some very helpful pointers and some praise as well.He even re-did the saddle slot for me, which was greatly appreciated.The point is,he knew how to evaluate the guitar in a way that would encourage and not discourage.
                       James W B

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Excellent topic, Steve... and some really good responses!

If I could add one thing...

I think it's important when evaluating someones instrument, to use it the way it was intended to be used...PLAY MUSIC ON IT!!!

Don't play harmonics, don't site down the neck, don't stick a piece of paper under the corners of the bridge to see if there is a gap.   Play it!!!

If, after you've played it and the intonation sounds off, Then check to see if it's something you can find and point it out. If there is some string buzz, Then, you can look the guitar over to find what might be the problem.

On the other-hand if the intonation is perfect and the neck feels great then you can skip the hunt for mistakes.

It just seems like a better approach

long.

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"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

The worst in all this are the repair techs in stores who love to slag practically every guitar that comes in the door, but who never dare to put their own asses on the line and build guitars...and sell them for wholesale.   I had to tell one guy that while he was free to criticize, that in my shop we build a whole guitar for a labor cost of less than what he gets to reset and refret a D-18 neck. Context is everything. When he shows me that he can keep the doors open, make a payroll, and build better guitars than we do for the same or less money, I'll listen to him.

It's OK to criticize guitars...with the intent of provoking a positive outcome, but guitars MUST be judged in the context of price and musical performance.   I'll put my (retail prices here) $850.00 ukes and $2,500.00 Renaissance guitars and $4,500.00 electrics and $6,000.00 acoustics up against anything with the same degree of engineering detail, labor, and performance.   I'd even say we get finishes pretty damned good, too. But don't complain that the intonation is off after you change to different strings or that after a cross country truck ride, the action has come up a bit...etc...

Great thread,

We should encourage as much as possible here on the OLF since a high percentage are first time builders seeking advice from more experienced craftsmen.

It is also very hard to critique art (instruments) online, I would have to closely inspect, handle, play and spend some time with any instrument to come up with a good and valid critique. I think most of these experienced guys would agree that looking at a photo or hearing a sound clip which both could have been poorly done would be good mediums for valid critique.

I have seen some pretty scarry warts on a few here as well as some unbelievable first builds as well. My first few were pretty rough, but I knew it. The good news is they sounded good. Sound and playbility can overcome ugly for me. I am still trying to build pretty.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

When I was at Jim Krenov's woodworking school in the 80's we would always gather around a newly finished piece and look underneath, and at the back. We would take the drawers out, switch them and turn them up side down to see if they would fit and other crazy stuff (all in good fun, or course). As we were doing this one day the girlfriend of the guy who had made the piece we were looking at said;
"you know, normal people don't notice things like that."
Always a good thing to remember I think.

                  Peace, Paul

I'm a beginner and I know i'm not going to build a perfect first guitar or even 2nd or 3rd. I would rather someone be honest and tell me the what they think is wrong then not say anything at all and give me the fause sense that i'm doing fine. That would just cause me to continue making the same mistakes. It might hurt someones feelings but in the long run they will appreciate your honesty.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

One of my friends, who happens to be one of the world's most famous luthiers, looked at one of my guitars and said it looked good. I asked again "what do you REALLY think?"
He told me he doesn't like to criticize anyone's work.

But I insisted and he told me what he really though,so I went home, took some notes and will do it differently on the next guitars.

My point??
When a builder(specially a newbie) finishes a guitar he is really proud and looks for reaffirmation and kudos on his hard work (we all know how hard). Everyone here praises everyone's work regardless of the apparent good or less than....
Is that good? Of course it is. Most of us post pictures of our guitars so we can show them off but majority of the times no one really asks for criticism. We just say "look at this, I finished another one!"
So, in order not to discourage anyone its better to criticize only if requested by the builder.


Not to say that my guitars are perfect (far from it) or sound awesome (some better than others), but I have seen my fair share of custom guitars that lacked in fit and finish, had terrible action, less than perfect joints and fair share of gaps.... some of them from well known luthiers.
Will I criticize them? For what reason? Unless I get asked directly I see no reason to bring down anyone's work.
How about tone? Do you know what the builder had in mind? Was that guitar braced for a hard hand strum or fingerstyle? Did he ask for a larger neck? And so on...

Ultimately it boils down to the customer's opinion.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Honest critique is great if that's what the builder wants. A good critique can be provided by many builders/players if they have the guitar in hand. I don't think you can give a really good critique from photos, though. Every picture I've posted has looked better than the instrument looks in reality, up close. So, unless the problem is very obvious in the photo, about all you can do is comment on how the instrument appears, and what you see, or think you see, might not even be that way in reality. All I'm saying is that it is difficult to do by photographs. For example, high action might be nothing more than camera angle.

We need a quality panel of folks that can sit down together and play/listen and put together some helpful info for that builder. I'd bring my guitar 700-800 miles to sit down with a group for an constructive critique session.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I think this a great thread for beginners, intermediates, and pros alike!

I very recently walked away from playing some pretty competitive  sports (getting older and all) and just started building guitars this year.  My first creation I build I thought was pretty decent and I had a very high quality luthier friend take a look at it and he told me it wasn't bad.  I then asked him to be brutally honest and judge it as if he were a paying customer!  I now have a build journal full of very good "suggestions" that I am applying to my current build. 
It reminds me of good coaches who would tell you that you had a good game but there were many things to improve on.  Constructive criticism , in my humble opinion, is essential for improvement when it is tempered by equal positive feedback. ( my .02)

In regards to positive feedback, I must say that this forum has provided me with an excellent teaching guide and I am truly grateful to all those who provide input.

I think it would be great to have a "luthier's only" meeting where we could critique each others work.... not criticize, but critique.

I have 2 friends that I always take new builds to. One is a long time player who has a keen ear. He doesnt care what it looks like, it is the sound that he is concerned with. The other has a terrible ear, but is a perfectionist on craftsmanship and details.

On my most recent guitars, the first one, the player, has been most impressed with the tone of the guitars. Coming from him, this is the best compliment that I can get because he knows what guitars are supposed to sound like. He always remarks on how easy my guitars are to play and what a great tone they have, resembling the old Martins and Gibsons of his day. I didnt get those kind of responses initially, but I learned to improve my technique and now I know that I can build a great sounding guitar that is extremely easy to play too.

The second friend, being brutally honest, tells me that I still lack some qualities on my craftsmanship and finishing capabilities. I know this before I go to him, but I want to see if it is noticable to the untrained eye. This guy is almost anal about details. He works on aircraft and he demands absolute perfection because in his line of work, lives depend on it. I learn from him too, because I know that it will take a lot to impress him with the final product's look.

There is another local guitar builder whose craftsmanship is second to none. Fit and finish are perfection. The problem is that they sound like cardboard boxes with strings attached. No projection, no volume, and a tone that sounds like rubber bands on a cardboard box.

The thing is, I know where my weaknesses are. As someone else said, I am my own worst critic. I can make them extremely playable, pleasing to the normal eye, and a sound that is hard to beat, but my finishing lacks some. I know that already.

I tend to go along with Hesh, in that I believe that first time builders should be praised for their accomplishments. It is a lot of work and a labor of love to build a first guitar. They should be praised.

I try to praise other more experienced builders on their good points too, especially innovative ideas that they have tried. Unless they specifically ask, I wont say anything bad about their work.

It is a fine line between criticisim and critique. If we could keep a civil head about us, I wouldnt mind doing this on a regular basis. There are those that I dont respect their opinion, no matter what they may have to say because of their "all about me" attitude. Other builders, I would take anything they said with great respect and thankfulness because I know their heart is intended on helping me succeed.

I beter stop there.

 

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Reguards,

Ken H

Krenov...I'm sorry, but what an a..h... he was.   Arrogant, dismissive, and a curmudgeon to boot.   Yes, he was a fine craftsman, but with a terrible attitude problem.

I went to one of his workshops at a private studio in Western Sonoma County once in about 1973 or '74.   After some lecturing on his philosophies and viewing of his work in the wood and via slide show it got to the time when we were all to introduce ourselves and tell him what we made out of wood and how approached our work. When I said I made electric guitars and electric basses, he just about "ripped me a new one" for even daring to build such pieces of junk. How could a craftsman build such crap? That was without him ever seeing or hearing anything I'd made; I hadn't brought photos or any examples of my work.   I was pissed, and so I stalked out and drove the 20 miles or so back to my shop, got a fretless bass that had been accepted to and was exhibited at a show called "Craft Multiples" at the Renwick Gallery of the Smithsonian Institution, and brought it back and stuck it in Krenov's face.   He wound up admitting that it was pretty good, but I could see that it pissed him off that he had to grudgingly admire my work. What hubris!

That cured me from ever holding up such a figure to admire or worship, not that I was a Krenov devotee in the first place; I'd seen the adulation in Fine Woodworking; I thought he had a good eye, but I still think he was an ass, though he made decent stuff.

And maybe that's the lesson here...

I am an architect, so I'm used to both "critique and criticism" as Mattia said.

A big part of my job is to fight for my designs against contractors, budget cutters, municipal councils, zoning authorities and what have you. It can be hell on many levels, and one of the things you deal with is criticism, for which you just develop a thick skin; that, or you don't last in this job. Criticism is not constructive IMO, it reeks of hidden agendas and is purely destructive for good results.

Critique is different, and absolutely necessary for me. When I was in architecture school we were trained in it every day and honesty was all that mattered and some times it would be rough; students would put months of love and labour in their projects, only to be torn apart. Now, I get from colleagues, friends, the people I build for, sometimes it is their 10 year old kid has comments that will open my eyes! This is where you need to be open for brutal honesty and listen to the advice, because they will judge your designs in the right context and with the best interest.   

I think the same thing holds true here; criticism should be dealt with but not taken to heart, critique that is honest and to the point should be applauded.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

An honest critique or even informed criticism of a guitar is simply not possible on a forum such as this. It is only possible for any musical instrument when you can get hands on. If I can't hold and play your guitar then any critique I give would be superficial and probably wrong.

We can make an informed guess from photographs and soundclips, but only enough to make the most broad and generally uninformed comments.

We can make educated guesses, as to the quality of the piece as a musical instrument. Look at a Kinnaird, a French or a How guitar and you get a feeling that they not only look to be instruments of the finest quality but will probably sound superb as well and be eminently playable. But only because the attention to detail in the fit and finish and material choice is so high that we can intuitively feel that the sound must follow.

I'm used to criticism (I'm married after all) but I do have a short list of those whose critique would matter, and those that I would take no notice of.

As has been said already if you want to have a critique of your guitars then take them to a meeting of other guitar builders that you respect, or to a store that is used to selling high end guitars, the forum is not really a place where more than the most basic critique can be given on a finished instrument.

And don't forget that there is no right and wrong sound for a guitar, we all have different ideas as to what a guitar should sound like. I've played guitars by a couple of the megastar builders when I was in the US that I personally would not want or been proud to have built, so would my critique of their overpriced heaps of firewood be valid? Of course not.

It's all very subjective.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

This is a great thread!  I'm a beginner and I know that my first few (dozen) are all learning experiences.  The path to getting better is having an understanding of the means and direction of progress.  I feel that a critique (though not complete)  can be made through photographs on a forum, if the builder is honest enough to photograph the warts and the members are kind enough to offer constructive criticism without belittling or being hurtful.  The true test is in the playing and unfortunately that doesn't translate to the virtual world.

If I put up pictures here and ask for criticism or even a 'what do you think?' I am implicitly asking for help, not praise.  If the pore filling isn't up to snuff, please let me know and maybe offer a sentence or two on your method.  I've learned a great deal on this forum and just by seeing what other people are doing I'm being pushed to do better. That's a good thing!

 

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

My main musical outlet is leading the music in church.

there are people who EVERY week, no matter how good or bad I have played or feel the service went, will say how great I am and how well that went and all that warm fuzzy stuff.

yes, it's nice to hear, but I don't actually LISTEN to them.......

Our sound guy has a great pair of ears on him. when HE days "that was good" or "I like that new song" Then I actually listen. he isn't a player or singer, but I reapect his views.

I post alot on another forum where the average age is about 30 years younger than here and the kids there are AMAZED that anyone outside a factory could make a guitar.

I take thier glowing praise with a large bucketfull of salt as they don't know what they're talking about.

95% of you guys on the other hand are better at what we do than I am, so if I get a "good lookin' build" here, then I listen!!!

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

I don't think that much can be shown or seen with pictures or sound clips on the Internet.   Yes, overall design concepts, visual balance, and gross exaggerations of features like bracing my come across. Certain engineering features may make sense. But in general, if we can't hold it and play it, then we shouldn't do much in the way of criticising of guitars on this particular medium. As they say, the devil is in the details, and this is not the way to show the details that really count.   

There is another forum that is seemingly barraged with "my first guitar" style pictures. I thought it got incredibly tedious, and for that and other reasons I just dropped out of the fray there.   It's like the kid on the bike, "Look Ma, no hands!"   Yeah, you did it. Great. Now can we do something about getting guitar making up to the next level, please?   Here I see folks working diligently to take it to the next level, both with the instruments and with the tooling.   

Yes, there's a place for helping newbies along. But let's not let the ego trip of having built one or two guitars get in the way of getting down to business. If you want to know what's possible in guitar making and who are real competition is, check out a new Martin D-28.   That guitar was built in less than twelve hours, folks.   And it's a damned good guitar.   And if you want to play one that will really blow your mind, try a D-18-A...one of the ones put together with hot hide glue, with the ebony 'board and neck rod, and an Adi top. Play it and weep. If you can't come close, you've got some real work to do in the shop...

I'm of the "if they don't ask I wont tell" school. I seldom to never give
unsolicited critique (to the maker) unless it's asked for. Even then I try to
rule out all the areas of subjective qualities (tone), or lack thereof.
Rick has a very valid point in making apples/apples comparisons regarding
price points. It's alot easier to make a "perfect" guitar when you've got 200
hrs to spend on it.
Ahhh Krenov- he's a piece of work, that guy. That's why I chose Wendell
Castles school over his in the mid-80's.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

I think we could come up with a list of criteria to judge, whether it be public, private, or simply personal:

1) Overall aesthetics...shape, visual balance, proportions of elements.   This speaks to the designer/builder's aesthetic intent. Major league subjective here...

2) Execution of intent.   Chops, craftsmanship, attention to details. This starts to get more objective. Is the builder trying to pull off more than she or he can do?

3) Engineering. Is this thing going to hold up over the years? Again, here we're drifting into more solid objective territory.

4) Ease of service and repair. OK, this is related to #3, and frankly, I think too many builders don't have enough experience as repair techs...

5) Choice of materials. This is related to #1, 3, and 4, and some builder seem to want to go out of their way to find "new" materials without paying attention to why the old standards became old standards. This is like the "why not make a top out of oak" question posed on (I believe) another forum.   Why not indeed?   Because it's just a dumb idea if you learn what the properties of woods are...

6) Finish. Related to #2. Some builders get way too caught up in this, not realizing that a truly well loved and hard played guitar is going to at least develop a "patina" if not get dinged up to hell in a few years. "Rode hard and put away wet"...now that's a well loved guitar!

7) Tone. Mostly subjective, incredibly important but... I think there are some objective criteria here, none of which can be adequately dealt with here on the Internet.

8) Playability. Ditto my remarks for #7.

All the above MUST take into account the retail price of the instrument. A statement like, "This is amazing for a $1,000.00 guitar," could be very valid.   And if the same guitar had a price tag on it of $7,000.00 it would be perfectly reasonable to say, "What a piece of crap."   Same exact guitar, different context.

Bear in mind that numbers 7 & 8 are really what guitars are about. The rest of it is kind of visually and ego driven. Thus the conundrum: The things that really count are the ones we cannot judge without having the guitar (or other instrument) actually in hand in a decently calm atmosphere.

Very nicely put, Rick.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

rick - I have heard other people who had the same reaction to Krenov, so I guess it is true. But I studied with him for two years and never saw anything like that. He was incredibldy generous with his time day and night and with wood and tools which he often gave away to students. Some of the students built stuff like his but a lot of the furniture was completely different and I never heard him bad mouth any of it. In fact some of us thought he should have been more critical. I wouldn't trade those two years for anything.

                           Peace, Paul

Paul, you obviously didn't hit him with a pet peeve like I did.   He detested the very concept of an electric guitar or electric bass.   I was "instant enemy to all things aesthetically sacred" when I told him what I did for a living. I wasn't a furniture building devotee.   He had no tolerance for a viewpoint much different from his own.

It's OK. There are instrument builders right here on this forum who hate amplified music, pickups, and all that. For me it's just another range of colors from the musical rainbow, but it's amazing to me how tightly wound some supposedly mellow craftspeople can be, and Krenov was pretty damned tightly wound once you bounced him out of his nice little comfort zone. What I didn't appreciate was having my work criticized without his having even seen it, much less heard it. In fact, my work of that time was very informed by the natural curves and touchy-feely wood aesthetic of the Northern Californian furniture movement as exemplified by guys like Krenov, Art "Espenet" Carpenter (a pal), Sam Maloof, etc.   I was, in fact, the instrument maker who was the most like them in a parallel field with the early Alembic designs.