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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:09 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm
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Location: Netherlands
I woke up this morning with a fairly straightforward (though not simple, in terms of geometry) idea for a really compact (read that as 'benchtop') compound radius routing jig. John How's jig (which is similar to Mario's, incidentaly) looks like a very nice, elegant solution, but it's simply far, far too bulky for me to even consider building, and I don't have a belt sander. I need something I can shove under a table with about 30 other things when I'm not using it!

Now, I realize this has been more or less discussed to death, but for some reason searching the archives for 'compound radius' doesn't get me what I'm looking for.

First of all, I'd like a quick run-down of what radiusses you compound radius users are using at nut and fingerboard. I'll also go re-read the articles on calculating such things in the GAL Big Red Book, but a quick poll seems in order.

Secondly, if any of you build longer scale instruments, how do you deal with this? I hesitate to make a jig that's only 'suitable' for guitars, since I do plan on continuing to make baritones, in other words use scale lengths between 24" and 29", overall. Where would you extend the radius? Keep the nut-end the same, and extrapolate to a much flatter saddle? Or vice-versa? I may make one or two basses, ever, but not often, and I figure I'll leave those using a simple, non-compounded radius; making a jig for a 35" scale board if I'll only use it for said purpose once or twice seems a bit idiotic.

I'm assuming you compound-radius folks shoot for even thickness down the centreline, as opposed to even thickness along the edge of the board (which, in theory, given the 'right' conic section/compound radius, is possible)? Seems like otherwise it would mess with getting the right action s'more (a built-in forward tile in the 'board..). Then there's the slight linear (lengthwise direction) motion, delineating an 'arc' at each end, but I'm assuming that doesn't affect things, since the path remains straight.

Finally, what's your favoured bit? I'm thinking a 1/4" sprial downcut would work nicely, but I'm curious as to what others are using.Mattia Valente38402.1618171296


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:42 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm
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Location: Netherlands
EDIT: Um, never mind what I wrote in this second post the first time around. Been sketching. Was talking nonsense. Updates tomorrow. With pictures. Sleep now.Mattia Valente38402.8279398148


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:18 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:10 am
Posts: 2020
Location: Argentina
I'm all ears, sweet dreams.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:18 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 908
Location: Canada
If you want something "that does it all". you are going to compromise on every one. You only plan on building one or two basses? Do them by hand. The odd long scale? Do it by hand.

Jigs make sense only when you need to repeat something often enough to justify the time put into the jig.

So, decide what you're going to make the most of, and build your radius jig to make those as best it can.

Oh, and I shoot for an even thickness on the edges, not the center. The slight taper in the center's thickness will be of no consequence, so don't even think twice about it. You'll make your neck, then set it to the body using the fretboard as it is, right? Right.

there's the slight linear (lengthwise direction) motion, delineating an 'arc' at each end,

I don't understand what you're getting at. In any case, build it, and everything will answer itself. Mario38402.9721064815


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:13 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm
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Location: Netherlands
Mario: I'm aware of that, but the jig I'm thinking of building requires much 'tighter' understanding of the geometry than your swing-style jig, which is elegantly simple, but I just don't see how I can fit it here. I'll double-check all the measurements, as it's the easiest option, but I'll delve into the scribbling and high-school geometric thinking anyway, as an intellectual exercize at the very least.

OK, I'm fairly certain I'm overthinking this entire thing, but I'll do it anyway. I hope my Geometry's not totally off, but if it is, please correct me!

Basically, when you meaure your compound radius fingerboard with a guage set at 90 degrees to the face of the 'board, you're measuring a conic section not perpendicular to the centreline, which my geometry tells me is actually an ellipse, not a circle. Not actually something that has a radius, per se, rather has two axes and two focal pointy things. A very, very round ellipse, but an ellipse still.


That's a view of where the radius (section of circle) 'actually' is, mislabled 'theoretical R' in the top diagram. The bottom picture has, on the left, an exagerrated 'dead on' view of where the circular section in a compound radius board lies, ie demonstrating the end-to-end curvature. The 'straight on' measurements, looking like straight lines, are elliptical sections, not circular.



Take a look at the cone at the top right; that's how your jig (I think) and John Hows is set up; the arms are perpendicular to the surface of the 'board, not to the imaginary 'centreline' of the cone, which is defined by the line drawn between the two pivot points. This means that to get the actual proper 'radius' for that cone, you'd have to use a guage perpendicular to that imaginary 'centreline'. Otherwise you're measuring the elliptic. If the arms were set up as they are on the left hand side (making for a far bulkier, unhandy jig), the length of the swing would actually equate to the 'actual' radius, ie portion of a circular conic section.

To get the 'proper' radius using the John How/Mario method, the swing arms would have to be longer than the desired radius by a factor determined by the angle between the centreline and a line along the 'sides' of the cone (call it one of the imaginary strings). The example I used was Warmoth's 10"-16" compound radius; that's the mess at the bottom, showing a theoretical arm length of 10.6" for the short, and 17" for the long for the desired 10"-16" radius over an 18" stretch.

What it boils down to is all this:


A radius jig that essentially is 'guided' in routed slots, as opposed to acutally pivoting on an arm, would have to have curvature at each end, determined by the angle of the perpendicular, circular section to the 'string' line. That's the top picture. One way to achieve this is make the disks that carry the routed 'slots' at the correct locations (which should be themselves routed on a jig featuring both an angled pivot and the angled cut relative to the 'face') angle so they represent the perpendicular to the centreline.

This will automatically generate the curvature through the vertical travel the carrier board would have to go through when following these 'angled' surfaces.

Now, ultimately, I suspect these elliptical sections differ to a really, really, really tiny degree from the 'true' circular sections, so that we're talking small fractions of milimeters difference at crown heights and curvatures, but for a jig like the one sketched (very much in terms of idea, rather than execution) in the last picture, the angles in particular need to be 'right' if the whole thing is to be stable, rigid, and not subject to the workpiece moving around in incorrect ways.

Thoughts? Corrections? Anything?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:32 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 908
Location: Canada
I'm fairly certain I'm overthinking this entire thing

That you are, Sir. I didn't read the rest; the diagrams spooked me <g>

Just build it....


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:34 am 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:48 pm
Posts: 1478
First name: Don
Last Name: Atwood
City: Arlington
State: Virginia
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] Thoughts? Corrections? Anything?[/QUOTE]

Mattia, you might look at this site. I haven't tried his jig but I believe it will accomplish what you want to do. It may at least give you some ideas to incorporate into your jig.

Fingerboard Radius System

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:19 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England
[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] I woke up this morning [/QUOTE]

I Don't know about compound radius jigs, but from the above quote your a natural born 'Blues man'

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:41 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:07 am
Posts: 2281
Location: Jones, OK
Mattia, while I was attending Charles Fox' class a few weeks ago I spotted a radiusing jig that he uses and asked for a demo on how it worked.

It is basically a carriage that pivots in a simple frame and allow him to attach a radius guide block to each end of the carriage. Then the whole carriage assemble is pushed up to the guide blocks and rotated. The cool thing was you could but a different radius guide on each end of the cariage and produce an infinate number of compound radii.

I am hoping to get one of my own put together in the next few weeks and if and when I do, I will post pics. It is really a very simple approach to the problem, as many of Charles' jigs are.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars


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