Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Science does not establish truth, it merely attempts to explain that which is already true. [/QUOTE]

Great statement Rick!
I live and work in a science based community and truly wish more people here understood this. Many have it backwards.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Paul.
    Unfortunately, that Helmholz guy follows you home to your guitar
building bench....you just choose not to acknowledge his presence and i
understand your wanting to.

    I know they're only guitars, too, but I've raised my kids on them just
like Rick has and have put two of them thru college. I have a son leaving
in a few weeks for Life Chiropractic College in the Atlanta area and his
next three ad ahalf years are going to keep me busy.

   Granted, I did it first by building electric guitars and playing them
professionally through the kate 70s and the 80s, but the acoustic guitar
industry and the people in it have made for a much more relaxed and
enjoyable experience over the past fourteen years of full time building.

   They take on a whole new level of importance in your life when they
become more of a pursuit than a hobby.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to do that at all. It was a flippant remark that wasn't intended as a put-down, though I can see now that it could have come across that way. They're just guitars, but imagine a world without them

I have a huge amount of respect for the skills involved in making a living out of building instruments. But for me it's a way to relax and get the stresses of work out of my head. I don't expect to make any money out of it any time soon, if ever, as I simply haven't developed the building skills, but I'm having a lot of fun trying.

Perhaps Lance or Brock can change my status from Koa to Heretic

No Paul in a way you are right, they are just guitars.

They aren't the cure for cancer or a zero emission energy source, they are just musical instruments, and as such not even an end in themselves. Until they make music they are just expensive kindling.

No one will die if no more guitars are built, sure the world wouldn't be such a nice place for a small minority, and those that make their living from them would have to retrain for something else. But, all the guitar builders on the Earth aren't worth one Neuro-surgeon, or one bare-foot doctor.

It's all a matter of perspective, which we in the feather-bedded western world sometimes forget.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S]
......... But, all the guitar builders on the Earth aren't worth one Neuro-surgeon, or one bare-foot doctor.........[/QUOTE]

Huh???????????    

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Colin:
What a perfectly silly notion - you must be running short of good mahogany...that will do it sometimes.

Todd

[/QUOTE]

Now that's a ridiculous and insulting thing to say even as a jest.

As I said, feather-bedded western world. In the greater scheme, 95% of the world would see guitars as just what they are, rich man's playthings.

If, like me, you'd spent 9 months in Indonesia in the aftermath of the tsunami then you'd realise that no, guitars aren't important, their just guitars. They may contribute to the happiness of a tiny minority, but contribute nothing to the misery of the rest, they are just unimportant 'things'.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Science can make a contribution toward understanding very complex systems. A couple of examples come to mind.

In the early 1700's naturalists spread out throughout the world documenting all the plants and animals that they found. Most of these were unknown in Europe. Samples were collected and drawings were made. They did this for over a hundred years. They published what they discovered and discussed their findings at the Royal Society. Questions came up like "Why are there so many different kinds of beetles in England?" (Thousands of beetles only four Beatles). It wasn't until Darwin came along that anybody made any sense out of it all. What Darwin came up with could be clearly explained to a 10 year old.

Similarly, geologists collected data from all over the world and tried to make sense of it for hundreds of years. I wasn't until the 1960's that enough data was collected that an obscure theory called continental drift moved from the fringe to become, perhaps, the underlying principle of geology.

My point is that complex system require the collection of a lot of data. That data may seem, at first, to be far too complex to be helpful. But all it takes is the right "Aha" moment or that one piece of extra data and things can become quite a bit clearer.

I think we are in the "naturalist" stage when it comes to science in lutherie. Data needs to be collected on more guitars. Different kinds of data needs to be collected. And, That data needs to be examined. From this data there may come a few underlying principles and maybe even the "Big Theory" that later luthiers will point to and say "That was obvious. Why did it take them so long to figure it out?"

I wish I could do it that way myself. I'm a terrible record keeper. I almost never write anything down. This is despite a conviction that that is the right thing to do. I have a folder for every instrument I've built and there is almost nothing in them. I always seem to remember to weigh my top after the braces are on or photograph the braces after the top and back are glued to the sides. For me, I have to use a more empirical approach and rely on feel and tap tuning. For those to take a more scientific approach, I applaud them and I wish I could do the same.

[QUOTE=Colin S]
.....
95% of the world would see guitars as just what they are, rich man's playthings.
........
snip
.......
contribute nothing to the misery of the rest, they are just unimportant 'things'.
.........

Colin
[/QUOTE]

Colin, I still don't understand your arguement.

Wouldn't you say a guitar and music often provide the greatest source of comfort happiness for many with little resources?

Colin and Paul,
   You're right to a degree...they are just guitars. The wondefful ting about
them in my home, though, is that the income they've been able to
generate for me, whether playing or building them, has produced a very
talented and award winning designer in my oldest son and will produce
an honest and consciencious doctor in my next son as he completes his
studies.

    Who knows, these things may even produce a person or so in my next
three kids that will make a deep impact on the hardship of others that
they come in contact with a they enter and complete college.

    We do need to remember, too, that it is songs, many of which have
been written on guitars, that have brought comfort to those suffering in
parts of our world and have stirred the awareness of their harship around
the world. Guitars aren't merely the playthings of rich men, but are the
source of much comfort and relief of misery for peopl at times when
there is no other relief.

    A song can bring distraction from alot immediately upon its
performance and that can be enough to carry some folks through until
money and medicine and help arrives.

    I don't mean to elevate the importance of the instruments, but they can
play quite a significant part in bringing joy and hope to otherwise sad and
hopeless places. While in Africa, we saw people touched in many ways
and by many things, but the most immediate and obvious reactions came
most consistently when we got out our guitars and began to play.

    Music is powerful and somebody's got to produce the instruments for
it to be created on. It really is a matter of perspective.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Colin, with such a depressing point of view, why do you bother posting here on a guitar site?   You might do better on one of the political blogs or forums.   Why slum over here with such irrelevant people as luthiers?

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Colin, with such a depressing point of view, why do you bother posting here on a guitar site?   You might do better on one of the political blogs or forums.   Why slum over here with such irrelevant people as luthiers?[/QUOTE]



That was totally uncalled for. Colin is a fine luthier, a fine musician, and a gentleman. He is also a friend of many, if not most, of the regulars here. You are the newcomer, Rick. Don't come into our domain and tell people to leave. We were here first, many of us for 2 years or more. If you don't like it here, you need to be the one to leave. Read Kevin's response three or four times and see the correct way to interact with people.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Colin was in Indo immediately after the tsunami, I don't know what he was exposed to there. But I bet it was a big reality check.

Rick, If you were in a disaster zone, and someone in your family was injured, would you want a guitarmaker, a doctor, or someone to sing and strum "nearer my god to thee"? Living in a western culture where there is plenty of everything, it's not a big deal. We need art in our lives absolutely, but when you get down to the bare bones, life is more important than art, but is all the more poorer for it's absence. It's a matter of perspective, and where you're at.

Kevin has managed to somehow meld the whole lot together, combining guitarmaking with his projects in Africa. I guess he's ahead of most of us.

Sorry, Old Man, but I see Colin's post as being out of line in a thread about...well, you know what it's about, and it's not the world's problems. I will allow that he may be a gentleman and a scholar and a fine luthier, but he's basically come here letting us know what piss ants we are for thinking that lutherie is important when there is tragedy in the world.

And while I may be "a new comer here", I'm not a new comer to lutherie, and frankly I think that trumps whether or not I'm a part of your in-crowd. A syncophant I am not...

I grant that there's a lot of bad going on in the world; I also have seen a lot of healing through the power of music and the kind of community that music can help to create.

I'm not in the hair shirt camp...

This is a great thread and a wonderful example of how different disciplines enter into the debate as the discussion matures and evolves. 

It started out under the heading of science...

"When I read things like how a top along with it’s particular bracing is a “System”, and, how “thermodynamics” are involved with a dual ported guitar body, that tells me that there are things to guitar building, that I haven’t quite got a grasp on yet. Simply put, I believe it’s generally excepted, that there is a relationship between design, and the sound a guitar produces. Of course, it’s not just that simple, and so enters, the element of science."

 

Along came the philosopher and social activist...

"No one will die if no more guitars are built, sure the world wouldn't be such a nice place for a small minority, and those that make their living from them would have to retrain for something else. But, all the guitar builders on the Earth aren't worth one Neuro-surgeon, or one bare-foot doctor."

Then it veered into metaphysics...

"For many, music is spiritual, which is far more important to some than neurosurgery."

In the middle of it all was this...

"It wasn't until Darwin came along that anybody made any sense out of it all. What Darwin came up with could be clearly explained to a 10 year old."

A statement that highlights at least two basic conundrums.  What makes perfect "sense" to one man is heresy to another.  And a theory that can be "clearly explained to a 10 year old" sometimes requires fantastical subsequent explanations (punctuated equilibrium anyone?) that don't have any plausible reason for belief other than they are required to validate the original hypothesis.

What is such a blast about guitar making is that it is a wonderful amalgamation of craft, art, science, philosophy, and by extension sociology and politics.  Not too many other ways to get that much bang for your buck.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Darwin's theory (well, evolution as a whole) is the only one that is, y'know, a scientific theory with any merit whatsoever.

In a sense, it's similar to a lot of the magical thinking that exists about guitars, tonewood, guitarmaking, etc. in general; some of it's fiction and wishful thinking, some of it is based on rational observation, hypothesis-forming and testing. At least in the world of lutherie, since it's a craft and not a science, these beliefs don't cause damage...

It's a great thread! I didn't post on it because it is beyond my level. I certainly understand what all have said, but my level of experience is much too low to contribute. So, I've just been reading and learning from those who know better. I didn't post until it got personal and I found it offensive.

Two-weeks is pretty good.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Todd, is that a celice there on top of the hair shirt?

I'll pass on all of it...

What do smart neurosurgeons do to relax and recharge their emotional and spiritual batteries?

Play guitar...

IT's BANJO'S that's the problem!!!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Todd, is that a celice there on top of the hair shirt?

I'll pass on all of it...

What do smart neurosurgeons do to relax and recharge their emotional and spiritual batteries?

Play guitar...[/QUOTE]

Dunno about neurosurgeons, but this (hopefully one day) Cardiologist will be building some in all that, erm, copious spare time doctors have.

Ahem.

Right.

A bit late, but...

Back in the dim early times, when I was studying anthropology, I was told that a list had been made of things all human groups did. Every time another culture was studied, if it was found that they didn't do something, like, say, basket weaving, that was struck from the list, as it was not something that _all_ human groups did. When I was in school the list was pretty short; maybe a dozen or a dozen and a half things. All human groups use language. All human groups have incest and murder taboos (which may be defined differently, and sometimes get broken, of course). All human groups make tools, and music.

Making music is part of what it is to be human. It's a trait we share with very few other things on this earth; much of what we think of as 'natures music' is actually creatures out there yelling "SEX" at the top of their- whatevers- or telling each other to get lost in no uncertain terms. Whales use music in somewhat the same way we do, maybe chimps, but not much else.

Many human groups don't have much in the way of 'made' musical instruments, of course: if you live in a desert, and have to walk miles every day to find food and water, you don't tend to carry a lot of extraneous stuff. A coulple of sticks and a log that is already there will do as a drum for the dance. But still, some people in those sorts of cultures do carry instruments: little things like mouth bows and thumb pianos, but real instruments, that represent real effort and time, and allow for more sophisticated music.

We live in a culture that has built up a vast material wealth. It has been said that USAnians have bought more 'stuff' since 1950 than the total production of all cultures in all previous ages. Depending on your political and economic views this could be anything from great to disasterous: since this is not a political list I'm not going to give you _my_ view. The point is that we have both the ability to make these things, and the cultural stability to want them as well.

We also have the ability to send a lot of money and people out to help when disaster strikes in far parts of the world. We have, in fact, done so. It is always possible to say 'not enough'; I'm not qualified to speak to that either. I think that, in the end, what goes around comes around, and if we have not been doing enough, we'll reap what we've sown.

At any rate, I know this is 'just' about 'mere' guitars. In the larger scheme it doesn't mean much, and perhaps, in the end, I'll regret wasting my life on such trifles. But I cannot accept that it is not an honorable pursuit, and have to hope that at some level, anybody who is doing good, in however small a way, is moving the world forward. And I think that any good pusuit should be undertaken to the best of ones ability: if I'm going to be a luthier, then I want to be as good a luthier as I can be within my own feeble limits. Otherwise, how do I justify my existance? I think about Camus' 'Plague', and wonder about sainthood. I culitvate Candide's garden.

[QUOTE]I think about Camus' 'Plague',[/QUOTE]

Is that like bird flu?

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I want you all to know, that I respect each and every one of you! Moreover, I respect everyone’s opinions!
Whether or not I agree with your opinions, is not relevant. What is relevant, is that I am willing to
listen to your opinions with an open mind. Every time I read the words you’ve posted, I learn
something of great value. Through your words, I also have the opportunity to get to know you on
a personal level. This also, deepens my respect for you.

It is, in a way, unfortunate that all we have is text to convey ourselves, and because we only have
text, it is sometimes, easy to imply something, that perhaps, we did not intend.

If I had the chance, to sit down with any of you, face to face. I would be happy to discuss things like-

Will the universe keep expanding, or begin to collapse at a given point?

Or,

Will we ever see the “Unified Field Theory” become realty?

Or,

Are we beings of great conscience, only due to the electro-chemical reactions in our brains?

Though these are some of my favorite subjects to discuss, and I would be willing to go into them
further with any of you, along with many more, I’m not likely to post them here at the OLF.

Also, You very fine luthiers here at the OLF, have gained the respect of many other OLF
members, (myself included) and, whether you know it or not, your words have a great impact. I
look forward to reading your posts, not only for the valuable luthiery knowledge, but, the wisdom
and, humor that often accompanies them. In a way, you have sort of, set a standard, for persons
like myself to aspire to.

May I also say, that I would not like to see this thread die. I believe that, perhaps,
there are still things that could be mentioned, that would be on the subject of “The science in Luthiery”.
I also believe, that it can be discussed as gentlemen, as I know you all are.

BTW, I would like to thank Doug O, for bringing up some very good points!

I wonder if I could start an OLF saying? What do you think of this one?

“Is Luthiery a thing remote? I want to be a luthier, and lo, luthiery is at hand”

Robert

_________________
Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!