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Hide glue for bindings
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=56782		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  banjopicks [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Hide glue for bindings
I'm contemplating making up some hide glue with salt added for attaching my wooden bindings. I want to get away from CA and Titebond if I can. I'm almost out of these products anyway.

I'm not sure how much salt to add. I just need to extend the open time a little. I'll probably be done before i get any responses, but your input is always desired.

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Author:  Hesh [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
I would not use HHG for wood bindings and instead used and would continue to use Titebond Original.

There is no value in using the attributes of HHG for bindings. There is no tone to transfer with super hard, crystalline glue and who needs the short open time for something such as bindings where you may want to add purflings too. Sure you can extend the open time of HHG (although I never did and wouldn't mess with the formulation...) but you don't need to with Titebond Original or even Extend.

I'm also not a fan of CA and we have seen whole segments of wood bindings come off on small builder instruments that the builder used CA. Paul Woolson a great builder and former OLFer once reported here that he had a 4" segment of wood bindings come off where he used CA.

Think about this for a minute. CA fails in shear and bindings are intended to cushion a bump to the guitar edge.... Seems to be that anything intended to be bumped and CA are not a good mix....

Get some decent tape since the brown stuff is no longer around (I have some of it still stashed away...) and learn to deal with the mess of lots of Titebond squeeze out and your bindings will have a long, positive relationship with the guitar that you attach them to. ;)
Author:  banjopicks [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
Thanks for your input, Hesh. Im not doing it for tonal reasons, but for finishing. I know that hide glue will be completely invisible in the glue line. Also, having used fresh Franklin's in the past without issues, 40 years later, after gluing my violin back, i see no reason not to use it. Plus, i like tradition.

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Author:  DennisK [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
Reasons I use hide glue for bindings:
1. I don't have to worry about shelf life of glue.
2. Easy cleanup of squeeze-out after it dries.
3. Gaps can be rehydrated and steamed shut without any concern for loss of strength, or glue wicking into the endgrain and staining as can happen with fish glue.

Do one strip at a time. Apply glue to a few inches at a time so you can squeeze it out before it gels and prevents the strip from seating. Put about half the tapes on, not worrying about getting it perfect. Slop water on it to prevent the glue drying out, and reheat (I hold it over an open flame on the kitchen stove, but a heat gun would work too). Once it's hot enough, start at the tail end and squeeze the tapes down tight, adding more as you go.

I've used old brown glue before, but wasn't confident it would be strong if dried cold and ended up reheating it the same as I do with regular hide.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
banjopicks wrote:
Thanks for your input, Hesh. Im not doing it for tonal reasons, but for finishing. I know that hide glue will be completely invisible in the glue line. Also, having used fresh Franklin's in the past without issues, 40 years later, after gluing my violin back, i see no reason not to use it. Plus, i like tradition.

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Not sure if I understand if you see no reason not to use HHG or Franklin. When I speak of Titebond I am only speaking of the original or perhaps extend not the other flavors that can be problematic with Lutherie.

If you do mean Hutch that HHG is traditional for bindings it's not. Even the big name makers in the past did not use HHG for bindings. There are examples of makers who did but most of the tine it was Duco or something like that and they didn't use wood bindings either like most of us do.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
DennisK wrote:
Reasons I use hide glue for bindings:
1. I don't have to worry about shelf life of glue.
2. Easy cleanup of squeeze-out after it dries.
3. Gaps can be rehydrated and steamed shut without any concern for loss of strength, or glue wicking into the endgrain and staining as can happen with fish glue.

Do one strip at a time. Apply glue to a few inches at a time so you can squeeze it out before it gels and prevents the strip from seating. Put about half the tapes on, not worrying about getting it perfect. Slop water on it to prevent the glue drying out, and reheat (I hold it over an open flame on the kitchen stove, but a heat gun would work too). Once it's hot enough, start at the tail end and squeeze the tapes down tight, adding more as you go.

I've used old brown glue before, but wasn't confident it would be strong if dried cold and ended up reheating it the same as I do with regular hide.


That is a lot of extra trouble to go to with no benefit, Dennis.

With Titebond I can do a whole side in ten minutes not worrying about open time, no reheating, no water required, no heat gun, no open flame, sheesh your method sounds like a nightmare to me.

I applied glue to 1/3 of a side and started taping. On tight bends I doubled tape. Squeeze out was wiped up as I moved along the side. I never had any gaps (relieving the inner edge of the binding) and I never had to redo an area. Much simpler.
Author:  doncaparker [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
Hutch—

I use hide glue for wood binding. Here are my tips:

1. I don’t know the ratios for adding salt; I add urea. I add urea that amounts to about 5% by weight of the dry glue you used to mix up the glue. This is where it is better to mix up a fresh small batch, rather than use pre-prepped hide glue. If you just want to buy a fresh bottle of Old Brown Glue, it will work fine for this task. Old Brown Glue is just hot hide glue with lots of urea in it. If you use Old Brown Glue, heat it like you would regular hot hide glue.

2. I put some blue painters tape along the sides of the guitar, just below the binding channel. This helps with cleanup. I run the tape as far down as I think the glue might dribble.

3. I forget the binding tape and use silicone rubber bands to hold the binding in place. You need a cradle of some sort, with dowel spokes sticking out, so that the rubber bands have somewhere to anchor. I use Band Joe’s brand silicone bands. Run a quick search here on the OLF to get the particulars. Rubber bands pull the binding tighter than tape, and silicone rubber bands won’t melt if you need to give sections a zap with a heat gun to ensure the bindings are well seated and the glue has adhered.

4. Do one half of a top or back at a time, and let it dry overnight. So, this is the downside. You can’t do the whole guitar at once. But if you plan it along with other work you can get done while waiting, it is not a problem.

Good luck with the project. I’m very happy with how my bindings turn out using this way of doing it.
Author:  banjopicks [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
Back when i glued the back on my violin 40 years ago, I used Franklin right out of the bottle with no heat. 40 years is a good enough test for me. I have a glue syringe loaded with the glue i just made, and it is staying liquid at room temperature. Just to be sure, I have a test glue up on the bench as well.

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Author:  Hesh [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
Well whatever you do here is a tip that has helped countless OLFers avoid tear out on the top when binding and using tape:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=25316
Author:  bobgramann [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
I use HHG for my bindings for all of the reasons cited above. I apply a few inches at a time with a brush and usually use the StewMac or LMI brown tape. (Make sure the perimeter of the top is shellacked to prevent the tape from pulling up grain when it is removed. )I install each piece of binding immediately after bending it. So, if I have any problem with fit or with the glue gelling before I’m ready, I can turn back to the bending iron with the guitar and warm and press the binding into place.

I use scarf joints where pieces of binding meet. With many woods, and with the HHG, these joints can be invisible.
Author:  banjopicks [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
Scarf joints are something I've been considering. At least for the end joint. Thanks for sharing.

One more thing, these particular .06 walnut bindings push into the waist very easily with no pre-bending.

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Author:  rbuddy [ Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide glue for bindings
For wood bindings, unaltered HHG is my glue of choice.

Someone recommended it on a forum claiming it scraps and sands better than most others. I found that true enough to make it routine. An angled artist brush carries just enough to apply 3-4 inches of glue and control squeeze out, 2-3 pcs of tape and repeat. I press the binding into the cut at the end of the glue to eliminate bumps and the next application reactivates it as you move along. What little extra time it takes to glue in segments is made up in sanding and scraping later.

So far, wood bindings, fingerboard extensions and bridges are where I use HHG. I may start using it for top braces just as a repair advantage.

As Bob mentioned I always shellac tops where tape is applied.
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