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Just wondering what you all think about this guy's claim that the bridge is in the correct place on the D28 he has on the bench. I think he is wrong because he doesn't allow for compensation. When I have challenged him about it in the comments, he deletes them. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYVKlbBgA7I

Boy I needed a good laff
A pro uses a stanley tape measure ??? Wow all these years I used a scale ( a tool to make exact measurements) this proved that just because you have a camera and made a you tube your a pro

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Yeah, my math indicates he needs to move the saddle back about 5/64 on the treble side anyway. Lovin the tape measure...

M

Belongs in r/confidentlyincorrect


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I feel sorry for the people who take their guitars to this guy.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Deleted

I hope that clod of dirt is calibrated

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Dunning Kruger Effect for the win!

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Just for the record I have a D28 I bought in 1975 and the saddle is right at scale length. No compensation. Back then I never played above the fifth fret so I never noticed it.

Pretty self righteous dude, the tape measure was a nice touch.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Yikes.

So a lot of these early 70's Martins did have the "bridge" in the wrong place this is well known and has been for decades. The repair is covered under warranty to the original owner even to this day. We've repaired many of them and I think that an oversized replacement bridge is also available from Martin. We approach the repair differently since we have a Collins Saddle Mill and plugged and then recut the slot. Less invasive, original bridge remains on, etc.

But it likely also needs a neck reset and the need for a neck reset could be shortening the measured scale length that we see at least somewhat. Action is 75% higher than it should be and if I recall correctly these don't have rods so too much relief is not a factor in what we see.

And yes the tape measure is pretty sloppy and even he can't hold it in place and it's moving all over the place.

My guess is that it needs a neck reset, the saddle is in the wrong place and that the customer is right and the dude presenting the video is incorrect. But I would have to see it and measure it with a proper set of calibrated long scale calipers that we use for this with accuracy down to 0.001".

In our shop we always speak of where the saddle is not where the bridge is. Because of our mill we can change the saddle location with an invisible repair instead of trying to move or replace a bridge so the original bridge footprint in the finish does not show the repair.

Regardless of what slop there likely is in his measurement with the tape measure, he claims in the video and in the comments section that the correct distance from the center of the 12th fret to the center of the saddle on the high E string is equal to the distance from the nut to the center of the 12th fret. So, no scale length compensation.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

And here’s me worried my CNC accuracy is only +/-.00197”.


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Our tolerance for TURNED parts, so radius times 2, was usually +- .001, or sometimes .0005. Hardened steel. Many parts with one pass with a ceramic insert at 600-800 SFM and whatever feed rate gave a 32, or whatever it called for microfinish. The standard is: if you want a certain tolerance, your machine, and your measuring should be capable of 10 times better than that.

Whatever. Most of our mics read in tenths, so technically, +- .001" The machines were very capable, but how much does a boring bar flex? What if there is more stock? What if the insert is dull?

Since his tape measure is in 32nds, (FANCY) that means he can measure to about 5/16 of an inch. Read between the lines and you have 5/64".

The final placement for the string on the saddle is done by sound, not by measuring. But it has to be close first.

You're good for .5mm all day long Brad.

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Why be normal?

I share in the collective disagreement with this particular YouTuber’s disregard of compensation. I just wanted to point out something that raised my eyebrow even further: His shop is a guitar repair school (whatever else it might be). So, whatever is bad about his understanding of topics like steel string compensation (or how to accurately measure something ), he’s not just spouting it on YouTube; he’s charging students thousands of dollars so that they can hear it in person.

Hah! He disabled comments. He did however slip in one last reply to one of my comments right before shutting them down:

"Barrett says he doesn't have time to babysit. You guys may be confused on some terms & maybe need to go to luthier school all over."

I'm guessing that the irony of him ranting about bad information in videos on luthiery while at the same time spreading bad information in the same video sailed right over his head.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I did notice in one of the comments, that someone had the same D28 problem, and it was solved with a neck reset, with the a shim to add the compensation. If it needs a neck reset, that is a one two punch.

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Why be normal?

When I checked i the ""Learn more" section after the comments are turned off it does say "The channel or video’s audience is set as "made for kids."

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Ever the one to prod, I passed the link to Mr. Stock. His immediate response was a LOL emoji and to ask if I had sent in the required number of box tops to get the 'Master Luthier' decoder ring and certificate from Post Cereals. About an hour or two later, he advised that he had replied to the vid and suggested correction of the measurement error as well as the 'InterWebs Wizdumb' at the heart of the video. Shortly thereafter, he received a reply as below and comments were disabled on the video.



I am reminded of the Ron Burgundy line... “I don’t know how to put this, but I’m kind of a big deal.”

Re: the repair - if there is room to move the saddle back and still retain adequate break angle, that would be my preference; however, any movement beyond the .060" or so identified would likely be in excess of the space available behind the current saddle slot, leading to a new bridge. While Greenridge did not purchase one of the Ann Arbor Guitar's mills, we have a shop-made, much cruder variant that does that job well enough... but a saddle mill is certainly the lowest risk option for working in situ.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

people who refer to themselves as masters always make me raise my eyebrows...

I've been a carpenter for 40 years and consider myself pretty good at what I do...I try for perfection, and because I actually try I sometimes come close.

this d00d is a total jackwagon and needs to be doxxed to protect his "students" from him.

I hope he doesn't build guitars!

Mike

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Mike Collins

Funny timing on this one. I just had one of these on the bench. First one for me and I was not aware of the bridge placement issue from that era. I'll add that to the knowledge base!

The customer was having a hell of a time with intonation. He played around with six or eight new saddles himself trying to get it fixed. He even was super creative and created a saddle with an overhang behind the saddle slot to give himself a little more length. But complicating the matter was he had the action set super high with his experiments, so no matter what, he was going to be sharp. I ended up filling the slot and cutting a new one. New saddle with individually compensated strings. The new slot was just a hair behind the old one, so in the end, it was probably not even necessary and I could have just set up the guitar as is.

On a side note, even when I got the slot adjusted and saddle compensated, there was still "drift" (for lack of a better word) in the intonation on the low E. All the other strings were spot on, but the low E seemed to wander when fretted at the 12th. Usually spot on, but sometimes sharp (and no, I was not pressing down harder).

In the end the customer was super pleased, but it was likely due to the fact that I gave him the best setup he's ever had and the guitar played very easily.

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Tony Thatcher
Bozeman, Montana

Agreed completely, unless you're in certain European countries like Germany and Austria that have a master's test for luthiers to achieve the government endorsed title of "master" calling yourself a master luthier just seems so contrived and self aggrandizing. I've met a lot of truly exceptional builders and all of the best ones remain fairly humble about their work, the one's who have to preface their work with their self appointed title usually fall flat.

Like artists. One that I knew whose art bowled me over would grunt and grimace every time someone called him an artist.

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

i too just had a Martin in the shop with a reported intonation issue. Once I brought the action down to about half as high, the intonation was fine. My client was over the moon.