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MOP inlay help
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=56020		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  RusRob [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  MOP inlay help
Hey guys,
I am working on a replica of a 1830's Panormo and am ready to do the rosette. The model I am re-creating is Louis Panormo top end guitar which has MOP diamonds and squares.

The issue I am having is I can't find the correct size of diamonds and squares. I am not crazy about cutting that much shell and I only have a saw for cutting shell by hand (like a coping saw). I know the dust can be a hazard on your lungs and I am really not set up for wet cutting.

I have purchased some MOP blanks as well as bought some diamonds that I thought would fit but they are way to big.


Just today I ordered a sheet of "fake" pearl that is solid acrylic and is suppose to look like the real thing. (We will see when it gets here).


So I am looking for other options. I have searched a number of shell suppliers but no one seems to take custom orders.

I would really prefer to use real MOP but am running out of options.



Below is my detail drawing of the rosette. The measurements were taken from photos that I scaled to actual size and they conform pretty closely to what Both Louis Panormo and his brother Joseph who took up building these guitars after his brother.


Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks much
Cheers,
Bob
Author:  dofthesea [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
I would email The Duke of Pearl, Paulson Inlay or https://www.luthiersupply.com/index.html and ask them to help you out. They might be able to provide the shell pieces cutout.
Author:  Kbore [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
dofthesea wrote:
I would email The Duke of Pearl, Paulson Inlay or https://www.luthiersupply.com/index.html and sk them to help you put. They might be able to provide the shell pieces cutout.


+1 on making the calls to the vendors listed....
Author:  RusRob [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
I am not sure why I didn't think of De Paule, I recently ordered some fret markers from them.
I was at Duke of Pearl but didn't see anything about custom orders.

I was hoping not to have to have them custom ordered because of the cost. But I do want it to look original.

That is why I am asking for ideas if someone has done anything like this.

The acrylic sheet I bought is suppose to be able to take die, which would allow me to age them, but I need to get the stuff to play with it and see if it is even close.

Thanks guys,

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
I just got 5 or 6 inlays from DePaul. They do good work but you’ll have to be patient since the work is done in Vietnam.


Steve
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
If you have the right size strips you can make the lozenge and squares by snapping the pearl with the end cutters we use for fret work. You may have to touch them up with a file, and you may ruin a few in the process, but the strips are not usually too expensive.
Snapping the pearl is relatively dust free and the dust from the small bit of filing is not too hard to control.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
The hazard of breathing pearl dust is a myth. It is no worse than any other sawdust.
Author:  RusRob [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
Clay S. wrote:
If you have the right size strips you can make the lozenge and squares by snapping the pearl with the end cutters we use for fret work.


I wasn't aware you could "snap" it with nibs that accurately. That is worth experimenting with. I have a bag of one inch squares I have had for years..


SteveSmith wrote:
I just got 5 or 6 inlays from DePaul. They do good work but you’ll have to be patient since the work is done in Vietnam.



Yea, that is what I found with that order from them for fret markers. But they are beautiful ;)

Thanks,
Bob
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
Barry Daniels wrote:
The hazard of breathing pearl dust is a myth. It is no worse than any other sawdust.



For the average exposure a typical luthier has that is probably true. For those in the pearl cutting business silicosis might be a concern.
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
I did a quick and dirty trial of some ideas I had for making diamonds and squares this morning. I "snapped " the diamond shape with the end nippers as previously mentioned. with a strip of the proper width and cutting them at an angle makes for little waste (picture 1). I then lined up the rough cut diamonds so the "factory" edges, which did not need to be trued up were touching and the pieces were roughly in a line. I then glued the pieces together this way on a paper backing (picture 2). This allowed me to sand the rough edges on a piece of sandpaper and create a better shape and greater uniformity of size of the diamonds. I then released them from the paper backing (some of which is still sticking to them in picture 3). Things I would do differently - I would cut the diamonds a little longer than the finished length needed to allow more room for sanding them to dimension. I would glue them to a properly sized strip of wood to make it easier to hold while sanding the edges and aid in knowing when they are at final dimension. I might use HHG instead of super glue to glue them to the backing. The "squares" were just snapped and the rough edges not sanded, which would have improved their uniformity, but I was lazy. bliss
Over all I think it was a successful experiment and the results were reasonably useable and didn't take more effort than it was worth
Author:  RusRob [ Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
Clay,
Thanks for your efforts on doing this and taking the pictures. I know it takes effort so it is appreciated.

After you said they could be cut with nippers I went down to the shop to do my own experimenting. The first one was a total failure. I snapped the first side but when I went to cut the other angle the whole thing exploded on me... The next test I used my jewlers saw (coping saw) and scored the lines on the face of the strip. It snapped right along the lines and it appears that a bit of sanding (like you said) would clean the edges up.

Today I went out and bought a cheap 4 1/2" wet saw and a thin blade for cutting glass. I need to cut the pearl up into strips so I am going to give it a try tonight. I found out I can also put wood blades on this saw so I should also be able to use it to cut perfling strips on it as well. We will see how this works.

I really appreciate your assistance on this and taking the time.

I'll let you know how this tuns out.

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
I had success in getting them cut [clap]

The tile saw I bought was the $65,00 that Harbor Freight sells. and was about what I expected. It cut well with the blade made for glass. I have a future job of doing a backsplash so it will save me from having to rent one. But I created a sled to clamp the tiles and it cut quite nicely and surprisingly it didn't splash hardly any water as long as the guard is down.

Once cut I had a bunch of 1" long strips which was just enough to make 2 diamonds. Since I have the plans drawn out in Qcad I copied the diamond and made a template I could glue onto the MOP. (You can see the template at the top of one of the pics) Then score with my jewelers saw and snap them off. I broke a few of them but I just needed to score them a bit deeper.

Once I had everything cut out I super glued them onto the drawing I printed out to full scale. I then cut the rosette channel out (I used black marker to fill in the background to see how they look with contrast).
But the main reason for doing this is so the diamonds and squares are already spaced how the need to be. When I am ready to install them into the channel I will set the ring in and fill it in with mastic,

So, Thanks for your suggestions and especially to Clay for filling me in how how to snap this stuff.

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Fri Nov 03, 2023 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
That looks great Bob! What do you use for mastic? I used Zpoxy before, but that gave the transparent look I was going for. How do you get black?

With a thin wood blade, how do you suppose that saw would be for cutting strips for purfling? I was thinking of using a thin Japanese Dozuki against a yardstick.

The large squares of the MOP Lacotte I showed would be easier to cut, but the border would be curved. Then you have to learn to engrave to take it to the next level.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
Hi Bob,
Those are some nice looking diamonds! Glad things worked out for you.
That looks like a handy little saw. If you could fit the Makita 3 3/8in (50 tooth) sawblade and an auxiliary table to it it might make a nice fret saw set up.

Hi Ken,
To cut curved borders like the Lacote rosette:
I first set up a router in a circle cutting jig and on a scrap of wood traced the desired inside/outside circles for the pearl. I then cut (sanded) the mitres on the pearl and glued them so they formed the circle, over lapping the previously traced circles determined by the router. I then used a burr bit in the router to cut the curved edges. I then released the glue holding the shell to the substrate and fitted it into the rosette.
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
Ken Nagy wrote:
That looks great Bob! What do you use for mastic? I used Zpoxy before, but that gave the transparent look I was going for. How do you get black?

With a thin wood blade, how do you suppose that saw would be for cutting strips for purfling? I was thinking of using a thin Japanese Dozuki against a yardstick.

The large squares of the MOP Lacotte I showed would be easier to cut, but the border would be curved. Then you have to learn to engrave to take it to the next level.


Hey Ken,
I am not sure what I am going to use for the mastic, I have been reading up on it and it seems most of the "old world" recipes had issues with cracking. However I read that HHG and ebony dust works well to replicate the look. I know epoxy will work but I question being able to level it easily, so I am still searching for the best way to precede


Clay,
That is a beautiful rosette, must have been nerve wracking to cut that out. I like the look of shell inlays but it seems to be a lot of fussing over getting things right.

Thanks for the compliments guys, for my first time working with MOP (other than round fret markers) so I am somewhat pleased. Of course I see all the boogers but for the most part I am happy with it. One thing I did notice is that trying to get the points to line up was difficult but looking closely at the examples I have of Panormo rosette like this it appears he had the same problem, I see that some of his don't line up either so I don't feel so bad. And it will be authentic looking... [:Y:]

Thanks again,
Cheers,
Bob
Author:  RusRob [ Sun Nov 05, 2023 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
Just as a follow up for anyone that is interested, I mentioned I ordered a sheet of acrylic pearl that I read about on a different forum. They said most people would never know it isn't pearl when used as an inlay. So It arrived this afternoon.

I decided to just go for broke (so to speak) and try and cut it with my big band saw with 3Tpi wood blade... It cut really well but a bit of a rough edge.

It is 1/8th inch thick so needed to be thinned down so I used a scraper to scrape it down. It scrapes really easy and smooth and I had it thickness(d) where I wanted it.

I used my X-acto saw to cut the diamonds and when I started doing the squares thought I would try my nippers like I did on the MOP. It snapped exactly where I wanted it to and pretty cleanly too.

As far as looks, if you compare them side by side you can see the shell has more color but they both look about the same depth.

The big difference it telling them apart is the shell is cool to the touch where the acrylic is room temp.

All in all I am pleased with how it looks. I was planning on building my Nephew this same guitar in Maple so he will get the imitation MOP and I bet he will never know... :roll:

So anyone that has an interest in this here is the link:

https://www.masecraftsupply.com/AcrylicsOndacrylics_c_263.html



Cheers,
Bob

I included the sheet of acrylic but the lighting could be better to see it.
I also put the real MOP for a comparison
Author:  RusRob [ Sun Nov 05, 2023 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
I forgot to add that if you cut this into strips with a finer tooth blade I think it would probably work well for perfling.

When I cut the 1/8" strip for the squares it was pretty flexible and with a bit of heat I am sure it will bend.

Just a thought... idunno

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MOP inlay help
RusRob wrote:
"Clay,
That is a beautiful rosette, must have been nerve wracking to cut that out. I like the look of shell inlays but it seems to be a lot of fussing over getting things right."

Actually, it wasn't too difficult to do. All the "mitering" was done by sanding by eye, and being able to place (and glue) the pieces over the outline of the rosette allowed me to know I had coverage for getting the curved edges.
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