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Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
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Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Protocol when dealing with engelmann, particularly engelmann from a new supplier, is to do a bit of slicey dicey with a chisel to have a gander at the runout situation.

But, in a hurry to put together a dealer guitar in my ‘evenings and weekends’ schedule, I missed that step. I had the top glued on and was ready for binding when I remembered I’d missed a step. So I grabbed and off cut and had at it.

Hmm, I thought to myself. That can’t be right. I grabbed the other wing. Please tell me that’s not right. I grabbed the soundhole cutout. Dang, I guess that’s right. Off came the top.

3A just ain’t what it used to be, lol!

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Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Holly shmolie! Dang! That's impressive.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
That sucks. Had some ebony binding do that to me a few weeks back.


Steve
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
At least it was consistent! laughing6-hehe ( gaah ) It looks like it might run from 5:1 to 10:1. With Engelmann I check both edges of the soundboard and join the edge with the least runout. A sound board like that one I would use for a pickin' stick or some such cheap and cheerful instrument - one with a "floating bridge" like an archtop uses. Aside from the Harlequin effect it may have worked O.K. for an instrument with a non-glued down bridge.
Because Engelmann are generally smaller trees and often grow with a twist it can be hard to find tops with uniformly consistent runout from edge to edge. I suspect that if that top had been sawn properly it may have been a very nice top. Too bad!
Author:  Michaeldc [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Dang, sorry!!

The color difference at the center seam is a dead giveaway that there is a ton of runout in that top… Hope it doesn’t take to long to get back on track -

Best, M
Author:  jfrench79 [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
This is exactly what I meant in the BRW thread about suppliers basing their grading on player's criteria rather than maker's. That is one gorgeous, yet completely useless top.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Yup!
Author:  A.Hix [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
That is the result of a log being sawn into tops, instead of tops being cut from split billets.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Yup! Never seen it that bad before…
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
A.Hix wrote:
That is the result of a log being sawn into tops, instead of tops being cut from split billets.

Yeah what a terrible waste of wood and time. The entire batch is totally worthless. Ed I think most of us here would be interested to know who that 'new supplier' is. I know it can create a s@$T storm online but perhaps by PM or subtle hints. I guess it's also possible the supplier got duped by the sawmill too. In any case they should not be in the tonewood business selling junk wood like that.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Hmm…perhaps ‘new supplier’ was misleading. This is stuff I’ve had for some time, but is the first time I’ve used wood from that batch from that supplier, now defunct. I hardly ever use engelmann…so to be clear, you won’t be getting any wood from them.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
jfmckenna wrote:
A.Hix wrote:
That is the result of a log being sawn into tops, instead of tops being cut from split billets.

Yeah what a terrible waste of wood and time. The entire batch is totally worthless. Ed I think most of us here would be interested to know who that 'new supplier' is. I know it can create a s@$T storm online but perhaps by PM or subtle hints. I guess it's also possible the supplier got duped by the sawmill too. In any case they should not be in the tonewood business selling junk wood like that.


Actually there are probably a few good tops in the "entire batch", just not nearly as many as there could have been. I have also bought some 3A tops with terrible runout - perfectly vertical and even grain, paper white with beautiful "silking", and terrible runout. Thankfully they have been the few rather than the many.
They can make very good sounding instruments, and sometimes hold up surprisingly well. We are told there is a risk they won't hold a bridge, and of course the harlequin effect from book matching tells the buyer - run(out)!
With such even grain one would be tempted to do a "slip match" and hide the offending runout. Not all instruments require runout free wood and with the proper mitigation a fair amount of runout can be tolerated. But since we can be choosey, why not use the best material available? There are plenty of "A" grade tops with good stiffness and little runout. bliss
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
I’m not afraid of a little runout and I was even tempted to push through just to see, but…that was too much.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
meddlingfool wrote:
I’m not afraid of a little runout and I was even tempted to push through just to see, but…that was too much.


That much runout would be readily apparent, and even - if - it sounded great and held up fine, there would be "experts" critical of it. Not worth the risk for a professional builder.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Exactly why I lopped it off…
Author:  Michaeldc [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
I had never heard of “The harlequin effect” makes perfect sense. I’ve always referred to it as chatoyance.

Cool, M
Author:  Gary Davis [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Someone please explain to me the runout issue here. My neophyte eyes ain't seeing it.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Yeah I don't mind a bit of runout either but that's like 30 degrees!

I have noticed a particular kind of runout that seems to be prevalent in Carpathian Spruce for some reason. IDK if this is what you refer to as the 'harlequin' look but I have resorted to calling it BMW runout. If you know what the auto manufacturers logo BMW looks like then you would know what I mean. It's not a full left right panel color change but rather the top of the left half is dark, the bottom of the left half is white, the top of the right half is white and the bottom of the right half is dark.

Ever seen that before?

I actually think it looks cool but had to do a retop on one b/c the guy didn't like it.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Gary Davis wrote:
Someone please explain to me the runout issue here. My neophyte eyes ain't seeing it.

Check out Frank's piece about it.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/General ... unout.html
Author:  bcombs510 [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
I have a few harlequin tops like this. I bought them awhile back from a luthier closing shop. I repurposed them for uke tops. :)

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
jfmckenna wrote:
Yeah I don't mind a bit of runout either but that's like 30 degrees!

I have noticed a particular kind of runout that seems to be prevalent in Carpathian Spruce for some reason. IDK if this is what you refer to as the 'harlequin' look but I have resorted to calling it BMW runout. If you know what the auto manufacturers logo BMW looks like then you would know what I mean. It's not a full left right panel color change but rather the top of the left half is dark, the bottom of the left half is white, the top of the right half is white and the bottom of the right half is dark.

Ever seen that before?

I actually think it looks cool but had to do a retop on one b/c the guy didn't like it.



Runout can change from one end of the top to the other and that will cause the BMW effect. You can think of it as a "very wide curl" . When the curls are tighter they become more visible as in curly redwood or curly maple. Because you are book matching the top the chatoyance effect creates that look.
I call the chatoyance change from one side of the top to the other as the Harlequin effect, but the BMW effect certainly fits that description also. Generally speaking the more visible the effect the worse the runout is. Still I think "runout" is oversold as a defect. It certainly is something to be avoided when it becomes extreme, but there have been many great sounding guitars that have noticeable runout in their tops.
Author:  A.Hix [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
jfmckenna wrote:
Yeah I don't mind a bit of runout either but that's like 30 degrees!

I have noticed a particular kind of runout that seems to be prevalent in Carpathian Spruce for some reason. IDK if this is what you refer to as the 'harlequin' look but I have resorted to calling it BMW runout. If you know what the auto manufacturers logo BMW looks like then you would know what I mean. It's not a full left right panel color change but rather the top of the left half is dark, the bottom of the left half is white, the top of the right half is white and the bottom of the right half is dark.

Ever seen that before?

I actually think it looks cool but had to do a retop on one b/c the guy didn't like it.


What you are describing here is the type of runout that occurs when the tree has grown in a spiral. It's when the grain runs sort of like the twist of a drill bit. Then when sawn into tops, it has runout that swaps pattern from one end of the top to the other.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Thanks for explaining that and I totally get it. Thinking of it as a wide curl totally makes sense. and yeah I can visualize the spiral too.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
Anybody have a good trick for testing this sans breaking the wood? I've heard some people say examini the edge grain very closely. I've tried that but seems kind of vague. Might be because I haven't seen extreme run out tho. Maybe putting the two sides together and splashing it with naphtha and looking for color difference?

I had one guitar way back that was engelman with extreme Harlequin effect, sounded great and held up well...

Pat
Author:  bobgramann [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oops! Check for runout first, lol…
When I have a piece where runout is in question, I cut off a strip where it win’t be missed and split it. Sometimes, it’s real obvious without splitting it, but sometimes, it isn’t.
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