Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Drop off in fretboard extension

jfmckenna wrote:

I don't do any fall away and in fact go for straight from nut to the end of the FB. I can see there being a legit argument for fall away on an electric guitar with 24 frets where you may need a 'second' relief in the FB but not on an acoustic guitar. All my own opnion of course but I get sonsistantly very low action with no buzzing and make everything dead straight. When you sight down one of my guitar you will see a relief arch from the nut to the body joint and then dead flat the rest of the way. In fact it looks like the whole FB as relief in it.

One question for you. You said, "I often have to re-do frets 13-20, and it's always been a trial and error process."

Do you fret before attaching the neck? You may want to consider attaching the neck first. Then you can plane in the FB dead flat and even add the fall away if that is what you want. Then fret the instrument.

As you probably suspected, yes, I do fret before installing the neck. I think I may do as you suggest on one or two guitars, and see how that goes. I can see how it would have its advantages!

Author:	Ken Mitchell [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:13 am ]
Post subject:	Drop off in fretboard extension
One of my growing edges is getting the right amount of drop off beyond the 12th fret, in the fretboard extension area. I often have to re-do frets 13-20, and it's always been a trial and error process. I really can't say that I've developed any type of solid understanding of how to go about it. I only know that some amount of drop off is necessary in order to avoid buzzing in the upper fretboard area, but that you don't want the appearance of any kind of 'hump' around the 12th fret area. Could someone describe to me where you start dropping off, if it's a straight drop-off or progressive (arched, somewhat), and how much drop-off you typically like between the 12th and 20/21st frets? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. KM

Author:	meddlingfool [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
I like there to be fall away starting at the body/neck join, whether that be 12/13/14 fret. It's usually about .020", and it's straight and progressive. This is accomplished by the natural wonder of glueing a 28' radius top onto flat rims. It just happens automatically. There seems to be two camps about this, the other camp feeling there should be no fallaway at all. I'm personally for it, as I feel it allows for some settling in/forward rotation of the neck without creating a ski jump...

Author:	Pat Foster [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
Us classical weirdos don't get dropoffs. Players mostly don't like them, since they do a fair amount of playing above the 12th. Myself, I level the FB and put in the frets after the FB is glued to the neck and body.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
I have been using about 0.010 drop-off and I think that should be plenty to prevent string buzz.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
I don't do any fall away and in fact go for straight from nut to the end of the FB. I can see there being a legit argument for fall away on an electric guitar with 24 frets where you may need a 'second' relief in the FB but not on an acoustic guitar. All my own opnion of course but I get sonsistantly very low action with no buzzing and make everything dead straight. When you sight down one of my guitar you will see a relief arch from the nut to the body joint and then dead flat the rest of the way. In fact it looks like the whole FB as relief in it. One question for you. You said, "I often have to re-do frets 13-20, and it's always been a trial and error process." Do you fret before attaching the neck? You may want to consider attaching the neck first. Then you can plane in the FB dead flat and even add the fall away if that is what you want. Then fret the instrument.

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Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
I think a lot depends on your neck attachment method and how much movement you expect under tension and how much with settling in over the first year or so. In some cases a flat extension may be a ski jump a year later. It is so important to try to figure out a way to see your guitars back a year so so post birth. One thing I always do is to level and fret the board with the neck on the guitar. (Easy with a double tenon) You can fret to about 10 or so and then support the headstock and add 10-12 lbs to the upper bout to simulate string tension and look at the drop off. If not acceptable you can sand some in and then continue fretting.

Author:	Ken Mitchell [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
jfmckenna wrote: I don't do any fall away and in fact go for straight from nut to the end of the FB. I can see there being a legit argument for fall away on an electric guitar with 24 frets where you may need a 'second' relief in the FB but not on an acoustic guitar. All my own opnion of course but I get sonsistantly very low action with no buzzing and make everything dead straight. When you sight down one of my guitar you will see a relief arch from the nut to the body joint and then dead flat the rest of the way. In fact it looks like the whole FB as relief in it. One question for you. You said, "I often have to re-do frets 13-20, and it's always been a trial and error process." Do you fret before attaching the neck? You may want to consider attaching the neck first. Then you can plane in the FB dead flat and even add the fall away if that is what you want. Then fret the instrument. As you probably suspected, yes, I do fret before installing the neck. I think I may do as you suggest on one or two guitars, and see how that goes. I can see how it would have its advantages!

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
Install the neck and then level the board. We level into two different fret planes with the 1st one being the 1st through the 12th and that's leveled with one beam that can span all these frets. Then we induce fall away from the 12th to the last. Fall away that we want to see on a steel string electric or a steel string acoustic is .010" to .020". A low action acoustic steel string player benefits from fall-away too especially if they flat pick or have a heavy attack. To level 12th though the last we use a short beam with two layers of masking tape on one end. We keep that taped part of the beam over the 12th fret while using and and that takes us to our .010 - .020" of fall away measured at the last fret. Do all your leveling and inducing fall- away on the board only once the neck is installed on the body. Any body hump is leveled off at this stage. Fret only after the board is leveled into the two distinct planes that I describe. Additionally we mill in relief with less on the treble side and more on the bass side also at the board leveling stage. This is accomplished after the board is leveled by continuing to level but while pushing the headstock or pulling the head stock while leveling. So If I slightly pull the head stock upward while leveling the high e and b area of the board I mill in less relief. By pushing the head stock back I favor the center of the board for material removal and that induces more relief. I go for less on the treble side and more on the bass side. Now with all this said and done, this is how we do fret work and we do a lot of it, nearly every day for someone. Next we install the frets. So you can see the neck is installed, the board is leveled, fall-away is induced and then relief less and more is milled in. So fretting at this stage will result in a very good fret plane and the frets will only need very minimal kissing with the leveling means and repeating the relief milling process pushing and pulling the head stock and you now have a great fret plane. One last thing fall-away is not necessary on a nylon string classical because of the much higher action of a classical. It's not uncommon for the concert classical crowd to favor pretty high action at times twice the height of a steel string shredder electric. Fall-away is such a necessary thing for others there is no debate as to it's value here, it's no different than relief and very necessary for many players. For the record the topic of fall-away is not subject to any great debate anywhere that I know of. The pros I know often do it, likely more often than not. It just seems to be something that some here have a different view of. If you did a lot of fret work, did not mill in any fall-away and guaranteed your work you would soon see you are redoing someone's fret work to add fall-away because the action they want and how they hit requires it. Fall-away is just one more part of quality fret-work and not the great debate that it somehow has become here.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
Ken Mitchell wrote: jfmckenna wrote: I don't do any fall away and in fact go for straight from nut to the end of the FB. I can see there being a legit argument for fall away on an electric guitar with 24 frets where you may need a 'second' relief in the FB but not on an acoustic guitar. All my own opnion of course but I get sonsistantly very low action with no buzzing and make everything dead straight. When you sight down one of my guitar you will see a relief arch from the nut to the body joint and then dead flat the rest of the way. In fact it looks like the whole FB as relief in it. One question for you. You said, "I often have to re-do frets 13-20, and it's always been a trial and error process." Do you fret before attaching the neck? You may want to consider attaching the neck first. Then you can plane in the FB dead flat and even add the fall away if that is what you want. Then fret the instrument. As you probably suspected, yes, I do fret before installing the neck. I think I may do as you suggest on one or two guitars, and see how that goes. I can see how it would have its advantages! I also find it easier to make the fret slots over the soundboard a bit wider so they can be very gently tapped in. I use fish glue to hold them in. You can also get like a piece of steel to use as a 'buck to hammer in the frets too.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Drop off in fretboard extension
I much prefer birdshot taped into a ziploc bag, then wrapped with duct tape and molded into a rectangular ish shape, rather than a chunk of steel. Keeps the impact out of your fingers. The back of the neck rests on a big bag of birdshot. I put a ~ 10lb bag of birdshot on the top of the guitar while fretting, with about a 6lb bag that I place on the FB surface and just move around as I go up the neck. All wrapped up in protective tape.

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