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went back to my diamond crowning file

The Z File works well for me but it still has to be tilted a bit side to side to get good results. I use them for probably 95% of my fret crowning work.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Don't know if it helps but the vast majority of the fretwork that I do is after levelling the frets and I get the profile I want with the original Z file. You'll have to try it to see if it will work for you.

SteveSmith wrote:

Right, I meant to say it seems to work fine on new frets, at almost full height, after leveling. I am not sure if it will bottom out on the fret board, on a fret that is more worn.

went back to my diamond crowning file

What diamond files are you all using? I got one from SM that was for medium frets a few months back and the crown on it is huge. I LOVE the Gurian file but being steel it just doesn't cut it for Evo and is not even great on Nickel but the little interchangeable file heads are perfectly crowned. I understand that you need to twist and rock and roll the file right but with the Gurian you really don't.

jfmckenna wrote:

The reason we rock and roll the SM old style crowing files is to help get rid of that school bus roof fret profile that they produce. The crown on all but the first run of these files is too shallow and really benefits from rocking.

I suspect this is because today's guitars are often coming with bigger even jumbo frets but I don't know why SM flattened the profile produced by these.

Dave has the originals and by the time I bought mine 2007 or so they had gone to a flatter profile file.

Hesh wrote:

jfmckenna wrote:

OK. I appreciate all the information from everyone, but I am still a little confused on which files people refer to when they say originals, 2007 flatter version, etc.

Stew Mac has multiple 300 grit diamond files for medium frets. (Prices listed are current sales price):
#4855 Dual grit diamond file $82.34

#5182 Round nose diamond fret file $132.75
#5054 Offset diamond fret file $133.52
#5075 Double edge diamond fret file Close out $63.45
#6423 Compact centered diamond Z-file $84.27
#6421 Compact original (offset) diamond Z-file $84.27
Did I miss any?

I think it would be helpful to everyone, if we could get opinions on the specific files that anyone has tried, and liked or hated. Or I can spend just south of $600 and try them all. I am working my way down the list as we speak. I tried #5075 and sent it back due to the school bus effect. I may have to give that one another shot, and try the rocking motion, as suggested. I currently have the #6423 Centered diamond Z-file, and am close to eliminating it from the competition. I love the way the diamond files cut, but I keep going back to the Gurian file for the crown shape, and then I have to clean up the chatter marks.

Author:	wbergman [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:47 am ]
Post subject:	Z-file
The Stewmac ad for z-file looks like it is foolproof. With my eyes not so good, I have been having trouble using every other type of file. Does the z-file have drawbacks?

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
The Z File works well for me but it still has to be tilted a bit side to side to get good results. I use them for probably 95% of my fret crowning work. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	Greg Maxwell [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
I use the original Z file for my students. It's a good way to learn fret crowning without much risk of damage. However, it does require some manipulation to do a good job without sniping the fret ends or removing too much off the top. With experience, a triangle fret file has no equal IMO.

Author:	bluescreek [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
went back to my diamond crowning file

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
I also use the original (and only the original), basically I think of it as a narrow diamond file with an indexing ledge on the side of it. It works for me to get frets done quickly and how I finish up and polish the frets also factors into the job. Of course it doesn't mean I don't occasionally grab the triangle file. After 50+ years I've found there are almost always several good ways to do any job, it's all about shaping metal and what works for you.

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Author:	guitarjtb [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
bluescreek wrote: went back to my diamond crowning file Which one is that?

Author:	Smylight [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
SteveSmith wrote: The Z File works well for me but it still has to be tilted a bit side to side to get good results. I use them for probably 95% of my fret crowning work. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Same here. Pierre Guitares Torvisse

Author:	guitarjtb [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
Very timely discussion for me. 99% of my fretting has been with Stew Mac medium fret wire. I have used the Gurian file from Stew Mac for years along with a triangle file with a safe edge. I've not been totally happy, so I recently ordered the Stew Mac 2 sided diamond file. I sent it back because it left a school bus top on the medium width fret, that I still had to remove with the triangle file and clean up with the Gurian file. I ordered a new insert for the Gurian file. It works better now, but I am still not totally happy. I just ordered the compact, centered Z-file and am giving it a try. It seems to work fine on a new fret, at full height. but I am not sure how it will work on a fret that has been filed down. If I don't keep the centered Z-file, I will still be searching. Maybe I should have gone with the original offset Z-file instead.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
Don't know if it helps but the vast majority of the fretwork that I do is after levelling the frets and I get the profile I want with the original Z file. You'll have to try it to see if it will work for you.

Author:	guitarjtb [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
SteveSmith wrote: Don't know if it helps but the vast majority of the fretwork that I do is after levelling the frets and I get the profile I want with the original Z file. You'll have to try it to see if it will work for you. Right, I meant to say it seems to work fine on new frets, at almost full height, after leveling. I am not sure if it will bottom out on the fret board, on a fret that is more worn.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
James Burkett wrote: SteveSmith wrote: Don't know if it helps but the vast majority of the fretwork that I do is after levelling the frets and I get the profile I want with the original Z file. You'll have to try it to see if it will work for you. Right, I meant to say it seems to work fine on new frets, at almost full height, after leveling. I am not sure if it will bottom out on the fret board, on a fret that is more worn. I've used it on frets down to about 0.030" if that helps although those were normally out at the end of a ski jump I was trying to tame. Also, if the Z file doesn't do what I want then I just grab one of my others, usually the triangle file with the safe edge. I don't worry much about damaging the fretboard because I always put 3M 233 in between the frets.

Author:	guitarjtb [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
I also tape the fret board, so damage there is not an issue. If it bottoms out, it will stop cutting. Then it is time to pull out the triangle file and the Gurian. Thanks for all the info.

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
bluescreek wrote: went back to my diamond crowning file We did too Dave didn't like the Z-file and I preferred the original diamond crowning files. And we rock them too which makes for nicely crowned frets. Regarding a three corner file being the best solution it's an important tool to have and even more important to learn to use I agree with Greg. A 3C file can do lower frets than these other dedicated crowning files can do. You won't be crowning a .018 high fret with a dedicated crowning file but a 3C file can do it. But a 3C file only works in one direction and it's not diamond making a dedicated diamond crowning file superior in my view for most fret work because it's much faster. Personally my method is to use the diamond crowning files and then when done I hit the sides of the frets with a 3C file to take off the possible side edge that we often see on lousy fret work where the fret profiles look like school bus roofs. So for me it's 3C and dedicated crowning files, diamond but no Z file, not impressed. PS: Be sure your 3C has been safed on the corners we do additional smoothing on ours so they can be in contact with the board and not leave marks.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
What diamond files are you all using? I got one from SM that was for medium frets a few months back and the crown on it is huge. I LOVE the Gurian file but being steel it just doesn't cut it for Evo and is not even great on Nickel but the little interchangeable file heads are perfectly crowned. I understand that you need to twist and rock and roll the file right but with the Gurian you really don't.

Author:	phavriluk [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:09 am ]
Post subject:	'mill in fall-away'
This piqued my interest....is this done to obviate potential ski-jumps or done on its own merits - - - once a fretboard gets to the body joint, it is tapered a bit towards the soundhole? Thanks!

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Author:	Hesh [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
jfmckenna wrote: What diamond files are you all using? I got one from SM that was for medium frets a few months back and the crown on it is huge. I LOVE the Gurian file but being steel it just doesn't cut it for Evo and is not even great on Nickel but the little interchangeable file heads are perfectly crowned. I understand that you need to twist and rock and roll the file right but with the Gurian you really don't. The reason we rock and roll the SM old style crowing files is to help get rid of that school bus roof fret profile that they produce. The crown on all but the first run of these files is too shallow and really benefits from rocking. I suspect this is because today's guitars are often coming with bigger even jumbo frets but I don't know why SM flattened the profile produced by these. Dave has the originals and by the time I bought mine 2007 or so they had gone to a flatter profile file.

Author:	guitarjtb [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
Hesh wrote: jfmckenna wrote: What diamond files are you all using? I got one from SM that was for medium frets a few months back and the crown on it is huge. I LOVE the Gurian file but being steel it just doesn't cut it for Evo and is not even great on Nickel but the little interchangeable file heads are perfectly crowned. I understand that you need to twist and rock and roll the file right but with the Gurian you really don't. The reason we rock and roll the SM old style crowing files is to help get rid of that school bus roof fret profile that they produce. The crown on all but the first run of these files is too shallow and really benefits from rocking. I suspect this is because today's guitars are often coming with bigger even jumbo frets but I don't know why SM flattened the profile produced by these. Dave has the originals and by the time I bought mine 2007 or so they had gone to a flatter profile file. OK. I appreciate all the information from everyone, but I am still a little confused on which files people refer to when they say originals, 2007 flatter version, etc. Stew Mac has multiple 300 grit diamond files for medium frets. (Prices listed are current sales price): #4855 Dual grit diamond file $82.34 #5182 Round nose diamond fret file $132.75 #5054 Offset diamond fret file $133.52 #5075 Double edge diamond fret file Close out $63.45 #6423 Compact centered diamond Z-file $84.27 #6421 Compact original (offset) diamond Z-file $84.27 Did I miss any? I think it would be helpful to everyone, if we could get opinions on the specific files that anyone has tried, and liked or hated. Or I can spend just south of $600 and try them all. I am working my way down the list as we speak. I tried #5075 and sent it back due to the school bus effect. I may have to give that one another shot, and try the rocking motion, as suggested. I currently have the #6423 Centered diamond Z-file, and am close to eliminating it from the competition. I love the way the diamond files cut, but I keep going back to the Gurian file for the crown shape, and then I have to clean up the chatter marks.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
5054 for me.

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
James Burkett wrote: Hesh wrote: jfmckenna wrote: What diamond files are you all using? I got one from SM that was for medium frets a few months back and the crown on it is huge. I LOVE the Gurian file but being steel it just doesn't cut it for Evo and is not even great on Nickel but the little interchangeable file heads are perfectly crowned. I understand that you need to twist and rock and roll the file right but with the Gurian you really don't. The reason we rock and roll the SM old style crowing files is to help get rid of that school bus roof fret profile that they produce. The crown on all but the first run of these files is too shallow and really benefits from rocking. I suspect this is because today's guitars are often coming with bigger even jumbo frets but I don't know why SM flattened the profile produced by these. Dave has the originals and by the time I bought mine 2007 or so they had gone to a flatter profile file. OK. I appreciate all the information from everyone, but I am still a little confused on which files people refer to when they say originals, 2007 flatter version, etc. Stew Mac has multiple 300 grit diamond files for medium frets. (Prices listed are current sales price): #4855 Dual grit diamond file $82.34 #5182 Round nose diamond fret file $132.75 #5054 Offset diamond fret file $133.52 #5075 Double edge diamond fret file Close out $63.45 #6423 Compact centered diamond Z-file $84.27 #6421 Compact original (offset) diamond Z-file $84.27 Did I miss any? I think it would be helpful to everyone, if we could get opinions on the specific files that anyone has tried, and liked or hated. Or I can spend just south of $600 and try them all. I am working my way down the list as we speak. I tried #5075 and sent it back due to the school bus effect. I may have to give that one another shot, and try the rocking motion, as suggested. I currently have the #6423 Centered diamond Z-file, and am close to eliminating it from the competition. I love the way the diamond files cut, but I keep going back to the Gurian file for the crown shape, and then I have to clean up the chatter marks. The closest thing they offer these days is the Round nose diamond files. If you are religious about milling a fret plane on the board near perfect with long beams that have been precision calibrated (and checked on a surface plate) you can get away with the 300 grit only. If on the other hand you work on existing instruments or you fret the board off the instrument like many do here and we don't recommend you will benefit from the 150 grit file too. Two of them and they I also recommend a three corner file for fret sides and the fret end file, the little one that SM sells too. With the addition of a shop made fret end file to take out fret sprout Bob's your uncle. A 3C file can also do a bang up job on fret ends too once you have the technique and some experience zipping it along many frets at once. Dave and I have demonstrated this to our students in the past. Results in near semi-hemi fret ends but without having to install them after doing the ends and having a fret board that looks like what J. Geils referred to as "goober goober with the green teeth..." Our process in a nut shell is: 1). Mill fret board flat on guitar 2). Mill in fall-away on guitar 3). Mill in relief into the fret board on guitar and before fretting 4). Fret the thing 5). Repeat 1 - 3 on the newly installed frets and only very little material removal is necessary now 6). Ends 7). Sand with 300 grit SAIT quad folded paper 8). Mask up and take it to the Collins Fret Buffer 9). Hit with 0000 steel wool 10). Howards Feed-n-wax 11). Spend the money we just made.

Author:	guitarjtb [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
Hesh, Thanks for all the great info. For me, #11 is revised just a little: 11). Spend the money I just made on more tools:>)

Author:	bluescreek [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
find them on amazon and I think Phila luthiers sells them

Author:	jfmckenna [ Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Z-file
I have this one in medium and like I said it's large and not as rounded as I like. I just used it on some wide .110" wire yesterday and it actually fit that better. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... -fret-file I also have this one and find that the crown is way to wide for pretty much any wire. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... -fret-file Then the original Gurian one which I like a lot only I wish they were diamond cutters. That is why I got the first one I listed above. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... -fret-file One thing I have tried was using the diamond files to get close and hog off metal quickly then hit it with the Gurian to round out. In any case a bit of that rolling technique helps.