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Jointing small pieces of wood
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54319		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Jointing small pieces of wood
I’m wondering if there are any tricky traditionsl methods for jointing/planing short pieces of wood, like tthe 90-110mm long pieces I use for guitars and uke neck heels. When gluing neck heel blocks to the neck shaft, I usually am able to joint or plane long pieces and then cut them into the shorter heel pieces that I use. However, as it goes with processing wood, I often end up with some short, unjointed pieces that I would like to use. Hard to plane a 90mm long piece for joining to the neck shaft. The woods involved are Spanish cedar, Honduras mahogany, and Australian red cedar. Thanks, Bob
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
That's pretty short. You could clamp it with pieces in front and behind it to make it effectively longer then just use a plane.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Considering the properties of those woods - I would run them through the drum sander to "plane" the surface and glue and clamp them. They are relatively soft woods and heel joints are pretty short.

Jointers have a tendency to "bite" when you least expect it, especially when jointing short stock.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
You might be able to glue some longer outriggers of scrap to the sides and plane it all at the same time. Just a thought.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Do you have a stationary disc sander, Bob? I use the 12" disc on my ShopSmith for all kinds of small jointing and shaping. It requires a good dust collector though.
Author:  bobgramann [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Same as Barry, I use the disc sander for jointing block ends. It’s quick and reliable and works well enouh that I think I could get away with an HHG rub joint. But, I clamp it anyway.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Edge sander…you could even tape down a piece of 100 grit and hand rub it…
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Pegasusguitars wrote:
...Hard to plane a 90mm long piece for joining to the neck shaft...

Well, that's what I do all the time, using whatever plane happens to be handy at the time, from a #6 to a block plane.

The technique is to get it reasonably flat first, off a saw (band saw, table saw, what ever you have). Put the piece in a vise, then plane across both diagonals (separately) covering all the surface, then finish off in line. Check flatness with an engineer's square. For the woods with interlocking grain, use a high angle plane. A standard angle block plane with a 40-45 degree bevel works fine. If it takes more than 2 minutes there's something wrong, either rocking the plane on the piece (if you're using a long plane) or the plane is way out of flat (if using a short plane).

I've never got a truly flat surface off any sanding device!
Author:  Mark Mc [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
I have a dead flat surface (granite benchtop) and stick sandpaper down to it, put a grid of pencil marks on the face of the piece, and rub rub it on the flat abrasive surface until all of the pencil marks are gone.
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
I use my beloved extra-extra-coarse 8x3" DMT dia-sharp stone and a 50 grit sanding belt. Clamp one end of the belt to the bench and put the stone underneath and rub on that for rough flattening and squaring of surfaces. Swipe off the dust with a toothbrush every 10 strokes or so. Then rub on the diamond stone itself to refine the surface, again sweeping dust frequently.

Don't rub back and forth; that tends to round things. Just push forward and lift up each stroke. Even then it takes some finesse to apply even pressure. I also use a repetitive pattern where I do 10 strokes, then rotate 180 degrees and do 10, rotate 90 degrees and do 10, rotate 180 degrees and do 10. That helps to cancel out any uneven pressure.

I've had much better luck with this approach than trying to plane small things. Especially endgrain. And when you need precise flatness, squareness, and length all at once. With enough repetition, you can build yourself a small CNC machine from a pile of 2x4 scraps :) Another noteworthy technique is when you need to make a strong endgrain joint, flatten the surface, apply watery hide glue, let it dry, and re-flatten on the diamond stone. That clogs the grain so it won't starve the joint, and since hide glue bonds to itself the resulting joint is much stronger than you can get with any other glue.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Another thing you could try - place a fine set jointer plane upside down in a vise and push the wood across the plane. Some people edge join lute staves this way.
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Like Trevor Gore, with a freshly sharpened blade in my LN-62.
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
DennisK wrote:
......... and since hide glue bonds to itself the resulting joint is much stronger than you can get with any other glue.

Strange, I read everywhere about hide glue’s low cohesive strength. I gather that's why HHG joints have to be a very good fit for strength.
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Colin North wrote:
DennisK wrote:
......... and since hide glue bonds to itself the resulting joint is much stronger than you can get with any other glue.

Strange, I read everywhere about hide glue’s low cohesive strength. I gather that's why HHG joints have to be a very good fit for strength.

Correct. That's why you have to do the re-flattening step after the pore-clogging coat. The trouble with other glues is that you either get a starved joint, or have most of the surface contaminated with adhesion-resistant dry glue.

Though now that I think about it, do glues like Titebond stick to hide glue residue? Might be interesting to try pre-treating with hide but doing the final joint with something else.
Author:  doncaparker [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Regarding the original question: A small hand plane and accurate square will do the job well, but some folks aren’t comfortable with their hand plane skills.

I have had success using a disc sander, but only if I set up a jig that guarantees only linear movement of the workpiece, i.e., feeding it toward and away from the disc. If you freehand it, the risks of getting a convex surface, instead of a flat surface, are high.

Using the disc sander, with the right jig, is probably my favorite way of flattening relatively small surfaces, because it is fast and repeatable. For instance, I put together a jig for cutting (on my bandsaw) neck scarf joints and then flattening (on the disc sander) the surfaces for gluing. It goes so fast, and comes out so clean and precise, that it feels like I’m cheating.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
What Trevor said.

I learned the trick to getting a flat surface with abrasives from a machinist who was making his own set of gauge blocks. He had milled 1" square pieces off flat and a tiny bit over thickness, and had the steel case hardened. He spent his lunch breaks with a sandwich in one hand and lapped the blocks with the other on an iron lapping plate with some very fine abrasive. He pushed the blocks around with a finger in the middle of the block, using a figure-8 motion across the corners. His blocks were optically flat within less than 1/4 wave length of the florescent lights in the shop.

When you push something across a surface like that there's a tendency for it to dig in on the front edge and remove more material. As you go back and forth you round it off around the edges. By going in figure 8s you effectively make two cuts off the center for each cut on a corner, and since the center really can't get lower then a corners it ends up flat. This is the same idea as planing on diagonals, since the plane tends to cut most at the start of the cut.

A fresh planed joint is the cleanest and glues best. Sanding leaves a very rough surface, and lots of dust and junk that gets in the way. Back in WW2 the forest products lab found that laminated propeller blanks that had been thicknessed with sanders tended to come apart more than ones that had been made with a power planer. Scraping tends to burnish over the fibers; it's cleaner than sanding and smoother. It's usually a good idea to scrape a sanded surface to clean it up. A fresh cut with a sharp plane leaves the wood structure intact, and produces high 'surface energy' that binds more strongly to the glue.

It's worth while to learn to sharpen and set up at least one hand plane. It's usually at least as fast as a sander in these cases, and does a much better job.
Author:  banjopicks [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
You can't have just one handplane
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Thanks again for the replies. I have gotten some interesting planing ideas to try. Good luck with your building.-Bob
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
For short pieces I have switched to a small adjustable mouth block plane by bridge city tools ,now harvey. It has an adjustable throat, is super accurate, is light made out of alum. an has 4 depth adjusters so you can easily dial in the depth . For more accuracy a large granite surface plate from Grizz.
Author:  bionta [ Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Ernie Kleinman wrote:
For short pieces I have switched to a small adjustable mouth block plane by bridge city tools ,now harvey. It has an adjustable throat, is super accurate, is light made out of alum. an has 4 depth adjusters so you can easily dial in the depth . For more accuracy a large granite surface plate from Grizz.


Hey, that's a neat looking little plane and it seems to be one the"Special Deal for today". They show a "regular price" of $165 and are offering it right now it's $79. I just ordered one. Shipping is a little painful tho.

Thanks for the tip!
Author:  Tom G [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
A flat surface and a graphite stick would be what I'd use for something precision, or if you like...
To use as a tool to make planing really easy to learn.
Something small is what I'd use, and take heed of stopped shavings as per David Charlesworth's videos.

Long reach angle poise lamp preferable to any other spot lamp, (use a bulb with nice warm light)
https://www.youtubetrimmer.com/view/?v= ... 65&end=506

One can do the same thing for larger work with some crayon (black/dark ones works best)

but for smaller work some graphite or even just burnishing can be used to great effect, once
the techniques which Charlesworth demonstrates are employed.
He really is the best resource you will find IMO, don't think I need link his videos on a luthiers forum, as most will instantly
see his work is about precision.
Rob Cosman has a few videos showing this also, harder to wade through all the content though,
Not what one might be asking for, since were talking about small stuff, but the techniques are pretty much the same.
https://youtu.be/GGuGFGAQTxE?t=1134

i.e ...sighting the work on a flat datum with good lamp.
Pivoting from an end, and
Feeling or listening for rocking with fingers on the opposite diagonals of the work.

All these things require one to plane on the benchtop or planing stop that won't deflect, rather than planing material held in the vice.
Gang planing can also be employed to good effect if you have a few bits that you want to use up.
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
I'm just not a big fan of sanding to make jointed surfaces. With the aid of a friend, I came up with this idea. Been playing with it. put a few necks together, and it works pretty good for me. http://www.pegasusguitars.com/planing-s ... -wood.html Thanks for all the responses though. Much appreciated.
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Robert, FYI . You may want to fiddle around with that little plane before using it. I suggest easy planing woods like basswood, aspen, cedar etc to get the hang of it . It will take an ultra thin shaving less than 1/2 of 1 thousand of an inch. For making necks I prefer a plane over sanding. The fresh planed edge creates a better glue bond than sanding.
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Pegasusguitars wrote:
I'm just not a big fan of sanding to make jointed surfaces. With the aid of a friend, I came up with this idea. Been playing with it. put a few necks together, and it works pretty good for me. http://www.pegasusguitars.com/planing-s ... -wood.html Thanks for all the responses though. Much appreciated.



Nice idea!
So if you had several to do you could place them end for end in the sandwich?
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jointing small pieces of wood
Clay- Thjat would probably work. Usually if I had several to do, I would have had a longer piece to work with first.-Bob
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