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| Ziricote and Super Soft II http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53424 |
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ziricote and Super Soft II |
Hi all! Getting ready to bend Ziricote with a Fox style bender. I'm leaving the side wrapped in plastic wrap and sprayed down with SSII overnight. I'm planning on unwrapping tomorrow morning and leaving it all day to dry and bending in the evening. Should I bend it dry? Using a a silicone heating band, SS slats. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. This will be the non cutaway side. If all goes well, cutaway side will be on Saturday. Thanks !!  Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
I am of the opinion that you should spray it down. I use the method that John Hall details in some videos which I am sure you can find by Googling. Apiece of brown paper sprayed wet then the wood and another piece of brown paper sprayed wet. Then it goes into the machine. Also, I'm not sure you want the SS2 to completely dry out for a full day. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
you don't use the direction on SS as that is for veneers not bending i no longer use SS2 in favor or windex with ammonia D I have a number of videos on bending in a nut shell A thickness .075 in B bending stack Slat wet paper wood wet paper Slat blanket on top place a thermometer under the blanket and on top of the slat Don't place it on the wood as that will cause a big sink and ruin the set. C Temp I start the lower bout about 250 F when in doubt place about a 3 lb weight about 4 in for the highest point of the bout. You will see this start to slide you will be ready to bend start with the lower bout Check moisture on upper bout add if needed crank the waist a little then do the upper bout at 275 F finish the waist allow heat to go to 375 F then set your controller to 275 for 10 min don't make it too wet you want the wood to dry off during this process. If you pull it when it is warm or damp this will spring back a good bit pull from bender and place in mold. you should be done bending in about 4 to 5 min I use a 5 watts per inch blanket lower wattages may take longer to heat so be aware of the temps and time |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
John: Have you tried plain household cleaning ammonia, perhaps diluted? Overholzer used to bend sides by soaking them in liquid ammonia gas under pressure. 'Hazardous' doesn't begin to describe it, but it does make the wood rubbery, apparently. One legend has it that Strad et al used to urinate in the water they used to bend ribs. I don't know who found that out, or how.  SS2 works pretty well, but seems to mobilize oils in some tropical woods. This can complicate finishing, particularly if you use an oil-resin varnish, as I do. I'd love to find a decent substitute. |
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
bluescreek wrote: you don't use the direction on SS as that is for veneers not bending i no longer use SS2 in favor or windex with ammonia D I have a number of videos on bending in a nut shell A thickness .075 in B bending stack Slat wet paper wood wet paper Slat blanket on top place a thermometer under the blanket and on top of the slat Don't place it on the wood as that will cause a big sink and ruin the set. C Temp I start the lower bout about 250 F when in doubt place about a 3 lb weight about 4 in for the highest point of the bout. You will see this start to slide you will be ready to bend start with the lower bout Check moisture on upper bout add if needed crank the waist a little then do the upper bout at 275 F finish the waist allow heat to go to 375 F then set your controller to 275 for 10 min don't make it too wet you want the wood to dry off during this process. If you pull it when it is warm or damp this will spring back a good bit pull from bender and place in mold. you should be done bending in about 4 to 5 min I use a 5 watts per inch blanket lower wattages may take longer to heat so be aware of the temps and time This is EXTREMELY helpful! Thank you, John! I'm working on 2 guitars simultaneously. I already bent the first set, amazon rosewood. It went without a hitch. I went slat, wood (sprayed with water, wrapped in foil), pad, slat, then wrapped everything in foil again. I hadn't gotten the SSII yet, so went with just water. Everything I've read tells me Ziricote is tough to bend. I'm using your method this time. No wrapping, pad on the outside. I like the idea of being able to see the wood while I'm bending it. Thanks again! |
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
Alan Carruth wrote: John: Have you tried plain household cleaning ammonia, perhaps diluted? Overholzer used to bend sides by soaking them in liquid ammonia gas under pressure. 'Hazardous' doesn't begin to describe it, but it does make the wood rubbery, apparently. One legend has it that Strad et al used to urinate in the water they used to bend ribs. I don't know who found that out, or how. SS2 works pretty well, but seems to mobilize oils in some tropical woods. This can complicate finishing, particularly if you use an oil-resin varnish, as I do. I'd love to find a decent substitute. I have 2 dogs that seem to want to pee everywhere....hmmmmm I do a french polish finish, hopefully the SSII won't complicate that process with the Ziricote. Otherwise I'll be moving to the Windex and ammonia method John suggested. Thanks for your input! |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
I've had no problems with FP hardening properly for decades on any wood, so long as the humidity is not too bad. The issue is with non-drying oils and some cooked oil-resin varnishes: just the ones I like, of course.... |
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
My experience with shellac confirms what Alan wrote. I have used Super Soft II followed by French polish finish with no problems (on curly Eastern maple, quilted Western maple, & EIR). As stated previously, when using SSII on guitar sides, you do not need to wrap the wood, and waiting overnight is fine. Only if you wait more than 24 hours do you need to apply SSII again. |
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
Thank you everyone! I just bent the cutaway side, and the non-cutaway will sleep in her mold over night. So far so good!! I went with no wrap, heating pad on the outside. Heard no cracks! Will let them sit over night! I did notice the first side quite darker. Bit I've read it goes away in a few days, right? Thanks again, guys!!   Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
She's good! A little grain lifting where the cutaway starts, nothing a little CA glue won't fix. I think next time I'll thin thin it out a bit more and add CA glue to that section before I bend. All in all, very happy with the results. Here are photos of the inside and outside of where the cutaway starts. Thanks again!   Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
Did it crack across the grain or is that water stain across the width of the side? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
To Alan Yes I have used Ammonia too smelly but works. Ammonia was used in industry to help bend oak and hickory for tool handles in the agricultural industry for years On the side crack issue you have had here is a trick. Place a weight ( 3 lb is good ) on the wood and slats about 4 in for the point it touches the pattern. When it slips and slides off your ready to bend. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
How hard is it to bend Ziricote? I just got a set for a guitar I am about to start. I never worked with it before. I do not have supersoft and I doubt I can get it here. Should I just wet it then bend? I use bending iron to bend, not fox jig or anything. |
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| Author: | Ken Lewis [ Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
It's not called Mexican crack wood for nuttin'. 
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
It did crack on the surface. Nothing a little CA glue didn't fix. It was just on the surface, not all the way through. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | guitarradTJ [ Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
Tai Fu wrote: How hard is it to bend Ziricote? I just got a set for a guitar I am about to start. I never worked with it before. I do not have supersoft and I doubt I can get it here. Should I just wet it then bend? I use bending iron to bend, not fox jig or anything. Not too bad. Super soft helped, but John's method was great. Maybe try the ammonia trick if you can't get SS2?Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Stefan [ Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
bluescreek wrote: To Alan On the side crack issue you have had here is a trick. Place a weight ( 3 lb is good ) on the wood and slats about 4 in for the point it touches the pattern. When it slips and slides off your ready to bend. Hi Alan, Is this with the heating blanket turned on? Are you using the weight to very slowly bend the wood, instead of the usual spring loaded caul that we pull over the upper bout? Stefan |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
yes when the wood is ready for the cells to collapse the weight will slide off. Be sure you keep the wood DAMP a light spray should be all you need |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ziricote and Super Soft II |
Raul, that looks like a full on fracture and not just a little bit of grain raising. |
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